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!shuffle


uips
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  • !shuffle - Use this at the warm up of the map and use it when you notice one team is a lot stronger then the other or when a map ends less then 5-10 minutes. Finishing a map quick means that we lose players on our servers which means empty server, we do not want that

It might be just me but sometimes it feels like shuffle is being used on situations where it is not necessary at all, maybe someone else felt like that?

  • Example 1: Allies or Axis winning 3-5 maps in row. (players whining over losing) in reality game flow is balanced but just one team manages to result in win in fair balanced game.
    (Ive seen 2 games in row finished at last minute by allies and that resulting in shuffle in 3th map. In reality it was really balanced gameplay, allies were having tough time but manage to complete objective, yet it results in shuffle for favor of  axis because some players whining and admins listening?)
     
  • Example 2: Game won in couple of minutes for someones lucky or sneaky gameplay, lack of defense and positioning (Frostbite, beach documents). Could be a random map out of blue getting finished like that. Again in reality state of teams is balanced but sometimes this results in shuffle.

Unbalanced state of game:

  • People cant get out of spawn. (Venice for allies as an example)
     
  • Objectives moving on fast without resistance. (Every milestone of map get done easily. (Caen for example axis advancing without effort to last part of map 20minutes left in game time)

I might be wrong but the matter which team won the maps should not be considered when deciding for shuffle (again some in game feedback from player asking for shuffle because one team won too much maps in a row yet games are balanced). Also those sneaky map finishes should not be considered as well because they have not much to do with balance. it can happen in one map if luck favors it.

I think !shuffle should be used mostly based on how the gameplay feels in general, not the outcome and those lucky, sneaky wins.

There is also this Even up rule if it is still active? That encourages admins to take action first if it can help the situation.

Even up rule & explanation:

If you !balance doesn't mean that you don't need to switch and just use. You, as a member/admins, should be the first to switch teams to even. Those who will be abuse it will be take off this command. Remember, Admins and members are meant to be the first to switch when uneven. 

Example: if you're in a team a lot stronger then the other would be nice if you switch to the other team that has one player less then yours to even up and make the game more enjoyable 

Example 1: your opponent team has 2 less players then yours, even up asap!

Example 2: if your team is losing badly and you end up being with 2 extra player I would honestly just stay in your team and help them out, it you would be kinda lame if you switch, no offense.

 

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9 minutes ago, uips said:

I think !shuffle should be used mostly based on how the gameplay feels in general, not the outcome and those lucky, sneaky wins

The stronger the player you are, the less uneven teams might affect your mood in server as you like facing tough challenge and some good enemies shooting back. But majority wants casual shooting, progression of maps and not to have 5 kills and 50 deaths at the end of map even if they manage to win somehow. The outcome of game is related very directly with how the game feels. Many occasions it takes some observation to see how teams have progressed. You can call it a luck for a weaker team if they manage to (for example) repair tank within first minute of goldrush as allied and driven it to the endpoint without basically stopping and have blown bank doors with 4 minutes from the start. But not all people with shuffle command (TM members, admins etc) can see the whole picture while playing NOR can see the whole picture when they connect server and see whats the status of map progression. I would say the balance between good and useful shuffles vs failed ones in TM servers (at least when I played very actively) was about 70/30. 3 shuffles out of 10 didnt bring any change or change wasnt actually needed. But its still just a game. Cant go too deep to analyze if shuffle is needed at that moment or not because it really comes down on how the person doing the shuffle is reading the mindset in server.

If you start analyzing a) what is the allied/axis strategy been, b) did either of team had good people in important classes (engineers, coverts etc), c) is the map balanced one or more axis/allied sided one, d) is the map big/small enough to even support attacking/defending succesfully, e) do players on axis/allied just know/like current map better than last/next map etc.

If you try to take all info into account, some people have already left, map have changed, game might have changed to completely 180 degrees but the biggest difference is that someone has left because they did not enjoy the game at all.

So if shuffle is done sometimes when you feel like it was unnecessary then maybe it was done to help out someone else who did not enjoy the game at that map or some maps in a row already.

I've yet to see situation where 100% of players in server (I talk about full/ full-ish server) agrees on need of a shuffle. 

And team balancing .. also very unstable thing. Sometimes team of 10 can be playing much stronger than enemy team of 13 so its very strange to go and swap to team that is actually stronger.

Statistically we can do or try different things but statistics can lie but placebo effect of a change magically works. Thats server management 101.

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Ive seen that too after shuffle things even getting worse as players change every map and people go to spec if they end up in team they dont want to be in. It is also Shuffle based on SR if i am correct. That is something u receive over time. A skilled player that just joined server can have 5 SR and be the biggest influence. I think it is somewhere suggested for Legacy to have command for shuffle based on K/d ratio.

I agree to determine the state of game you have to be in the team experiencing it yourself. If you just join game its really hard to decide on.

That auto balancing is weird. It does what it has to but i think there are ways to improve it. Perhaps auto balance giving  popup suggestions to players that it determines as best fit for swap, even reward SR for it? if it helps

to me weaker attacking team is not as bad as weaker defending team. As attacker you get lots of chances to try again or try new things. As a defender fail results in lose as u dont get those multiple respawns to try again.

idk if it is good to just shuffle whole team because one player. Right now there is call vote for shuffle. What about shuffle call vote for one team only? If u think you should shuffle because axis losing you can call vote for axis players and let them decide and based on that info admin can make better decision.

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I prefer to attack and play Allies almost all the time and revel a challenge to play against a strong Axis team. But it's not fun for most players when the team is boxed into a small area around your spawn for the whole game.

Rather than K/D ratio, a shuffle decision could be based on damage given by each team. It's a common way to measure one's impact. Or perhaps a mix of both. For very uneven games, the ratio is usually very lopsided.

As for the shuffling algorithm itself, I would rather have the server perform a completely random shuffle. One issue with SR shuffle is that SR is an imperfect measure, and basing a shuffle on SR can create what's called a 'systematic bias' which can be hard to correct. A true random shuffle removes this bias but introduces the uncertainty of dice rolls (like a bad card hand). In theory, after a few random shuffles - if people stay long enough and don't team hop - it would at least be self-correcting (the quality of your card hand averages out over many games).

Edited by StiffWrists
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29 minutes ago, StiffWrists said:

Rather than K/D ratio, a shuffle decision could be based on damage given by each team. It's a common way to measure one's impact. Or perhaps a mix of both. For very uneven games, the ratio is usually very lopsided.

Different Shuffle options for admins to choose would not be a bad thing?

  • Random shuffle
  • SR shuffle
  • K/D shuffle
  • Damage shuffle
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Well, my 2p in this one…

First of all some maps will always be in favor of the defending team simply because the map is too small.

And the one is teamwork, on main I’m sr6 on an good day but when backed up by an good shooting medic that does it job I’ll win any map regardless of the sr of the opponent. The keyword is teamwork, if that lacks in the (attacking) team ye doomed and the cry for shuffle becomes louder and louder. Noting more or less than that. Even I got shuffled because my team kept on winning map after map while based on k/d and sr we where an very low. No need for fancy shuffle addons just because the server got flawed maps in rotation or an team that has teamwork high on its agenda. 
 

The above is the reason why I spec some maps as they are just not suited for our servers yet they are in high demand by the players. 
 

Just team up and your unbeatable but remember to forget about k/d ratio cause that wil suck the big one when going for teamplay!

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Sometimes you can see a map ends in a few minutes and balance is 99 perc 1 team and 1 perc other team, 

When this happens 2 maps in a row, its clear we need a shuffle.

6 hours ago, uips said:

Ive seen that too after shuffle things even getting worse

To bad . . even without people moving, shuffle doesn't do a good job most of the time.

I do not know the logic behind i, but I am more and more convinced that a 100% random would do a better job than the current logic.

 

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