Spankilling rules

[Oldman]

Hey there,

I am pretty sure the team has spent alot of thought over the last years on how to handle and prevent spawn killing, and the existing rules are imho very good and clear in general. However, whether there are rules or not, it often remains a subjective decision by the team themselves who to kick and what to warn: where does for instance a spawn area end? Also it's sometimes not bad to have a general second view from outside. Thus, a few considerations for thought & discussion, if you like (didn't know where to put them, thus I use this forum area):

1. The prohibition to spawn kill should not lead to a strategic advantage for a spawning team. E.g. if one throws nades out of a bunker that contains a spawnpoint, one should not accuse of SK if one eats a nade afterwards. This is also why an invisible wall like this, which allows bullets from just one side, would not be the best option.
2. Maybe establish a soft-kick variation that let's one rejoin within a minute wait time or so? I mean, since I now have been kicked, just after opening a new beer to accompany the map, I can tell you it's annoying enough, if you had just warmed up and fun playing.
3. Imho, a kick should be ultima ratio; if there are milder ways, like a warning, use them. Putting a wall of text in chat at the beginning of the match will not help much, since people - at least me - don't read it, or rather have no chance to read it. Warnings to others might also often go unread.
4. Don't just enforce the rules because you have rules. In the end, they should imho prevent unfair practices that kill the fun not only for newer players. That being said, it's something different if someone intuitively throws a nade in spawn direction, without much thinking about it, or if someone places and airstrike and blocks the spawn exit. SK is not equal SK.
5. When banning, consider that you have sort of a monopoly - it seems there are not many servers left today, which are well adminstrated, and well visited. Or did I oversee them?

Lastly, for a better discussion culture, I'd suggest you don't close threads, let only Muppets reopen it so they can add thoughts, and re-close them again immediately afterwards. It's feels like gagging registrants, who might still have something to add. ;-)

With regards,
Oldman

[MrMuppet]

Hello and welcome, thank you for your topic and indeed your topic of introduction, I am currently at work so only have a short reply.

This topic will be left open for discussion by all, the previous topic was closed by an admin as he believed there was no more to be said, we have certain forum levels that can post in closed topics so these don't have to be reopened solely to post into, I can only apologise that the topic was not again opened to accept replies in public, it was not meant to censor your concerns. 

[divine_one]

15 hours ago, Oldman said:

Hey there,

I am pretty sure the team has spent alot of thought over the last years on how to handle and prevent spawn killing, and the existing rules are imho very good and clear in general. However, whether there are rules or not, it often remains a subjective decision by the team themselves who to kick and what to warn: where does for instance a spawn area end? Also it's sometimes not bad to have a general second view from outside. Thus, a few considerations for thought & discussion, if you like (didn't know where to put them, thus I use this forum area):

1. The prohibition to spawn kill should not lead to a strategic advantage for a spawning team. E.g. if one throws nades out of a bunker that contains a spawnpoint, one should not accuse of SK if one eats a nade afterwards. This is also why an invisible wall like this, which allows bullets from just one side, would not be the best option.
2. Maybe establish a soft-kick variation that let's one rejoin within a minute wait time or so? I mean, since I now have been kicked, just after opening a new beer to accompany the map, I can tell you it's annoying enough, if you had just warmed up and fun playing.
3. Imho, a kick should be ultima ratio; if there are milder ways, like a warning, use them. Putting a wall of text in chat at the beginning of the match will not help much, since people - at least me - don't read it, or rather have no chance to read it. Warnings to others might also often go unread.
4. Don't just enforce the rules because you have rules. In the end, they should imho prevent unfair practices that kill the fun not only for newer players. That being said, it's something different if someone intuitively throws a nade in spawn direction, without much thinking about it, or if someone places and airstrike and blocks the spawn exit. SK is not equal SK.
5. When banning, consider that you have sort of a monopoly - it seems there are not many servers left today, which are well adminstrated, and well visited. Or did I oversee them?

Lastly, for a better discussion culture, I'd suggest you don't close threads, let only Muppets reopen it so they can add thoughts, and re-close them again immediately afterwards. It's feels like gagging registrants, who might still have something to add. ;-)

With regards,
Oldman

 

Hey Oldman!

It's just my few toughts.

Ad 1. The problem is that a grenade (or any other heavy weapon) thrown at a spawn can kill several players or not the one that was intended. Light weapoms as an answer for attacking spawner are allowed.

Ad 2. Maybe it's worth considering, but...

Ad 3 and Ad 4. ...but kick IS "the ultima ratio". Believe me or not. We don't kick people out of the server for any reason or just because we can. Sometimes at full server it's like pure chaos. Nobody pays attention to the requests or warnings of admins (as you have admitted yourself) and giving !warn or even pm to exact player x times in a row doesn't change anything. Of course we have some other useful commands like freeze or gib, but I have personally seen many times that a frozen player just asked why his mouse or keyboard is not working, reconnected and still spawnkilling. So, again, !kick IS the final solution giving us a chance to draw players attention. And in my opinion it should stay exactly as it is now because of it's "ultima ratio". 

We, as a TM community trying to make our servers friendly to everyone - from new players, to experienced ones. Sometimes our decisions / actions may seem unpopular or harmful, but we really try our best. It's just hard to please everyone. And honestly, we have a very few main rules to follow...

Ad 5. Whoever was banned permanently - deserved it. Temporary ban is considered as a second (and probably not last) chance to rethink self behavior.

P.S. It' s funny how different things look, depending on where you sit, right?

Edited May 14, 2020 by divine_one

[Ctrz]

18 hours ago, Oldman said:

Hey there,

I am pretty sure the team has spent alot of thought over the last years on how to handle and prevent spawn killing, and the existing rules are imho very good and clear in general. However, whether there are rules or not, it often remains a subjective decision by the team themselves who to kick and what to warn: where does for instance a spawn area end? Also it's sometimes not bad to have a general second view from outside. Thus, a few considerations for thought & discussion, if you like (didn't know where to put them, thus I use this forum area):

Oof. I like me some long and essay type answers, so here we go.

There are few different spawns so we have few rulesets for them:

a) spawns that are capturable by one team by capturing flag or building CP (examples : bremen and frostbite cp for allies)

As long as that CP is not built, you can shoot whatever inside there or camp the doorway with whatever weapon you like (mortar included) as it is not spawn. When that CP is built, you can still kill people inside spawn or camp the spawnexit with whatever weapon you like except Mortar inside spawn and on spawnexit. Usually those spawns are surrounded by walls and between walls is the spawn and the way out to next room is considered spawnexit.

b) spawns that are capturable by both teams by capturing flag or building CP and remain capturable (example : battery flag spawn, battery cp spawn)

As long as it can be captured, every gun except Mortar can be used inside spawn and on spawnexit. Usually those spawns are surrounded by walls too and spawnexits are easily distinguishable

c) spawns that are capturable by both teams by building cp or capturing flag and will become one team permanent spawn as soon as some mission for map is completed (example : oasis flag spawn for allied, caen flag spawn for axis, radar flag spawn for allied)

As long as spawn can be captured back by other team, its okay to kill inside there or camp the exit with every weapon except mortar.

When the spawn will become permanent, it is against rules to use any heavy weapon inside there (soldier weapons + grenades + riflenades + satchel + arty + airstrike) and players (who are in team that is not spawning there) are allowed to pass through this spawn and return fire with light weapon when getting shot first from spawning enemy. When spawned enemy goes out and comes back to spawn then they are free to be killed with light weapons immediatelly. Also whoever who stays inside that spawn and shoot out will be counted as "spawned player who attacked first" and is allowed to be killed with light weapon. This includes also mortar who sits inside spawn and shoots out.

Also (when spawn has become permanent spawn) it is allowed to use heavier weapon to block spawnexit ONLY when there is multiple exits from that spawn that are usable by default. That is why we have a rule in Oasis that we dont allow heavy weapons past broken wall for axis because allies have by default only one way out from that area (as the waterpump exit is a object to complete on its own). We dont allow arty or heavy guns to block the Supply depot flagexit for allies as strike/arty/mortar can block both ways out and in Erdenberg the little area in front of Allied flag spawn is also the only way out for allies. Also area in front of Axis flag spawn in Caen should stay arty-mortar etc free as there is no other way out.

This ruleset will cover also spawns that are not capturable and are there in the beginning or will become available when map progresses and attacking team completes some objective (for example : goldrush tank area spawn, fuel dump tunnel upper spawn for allied).

So. Those are the most of spawns covered and scenarios described. Questions?

18 hours ago, Oldman said:

The prohibition to spawn kill should not lead to a strategic advantage for a spawning team. E.g. if one throws nades out of a bunker that contains a spawnpoint, one should not accuse of SK if one eats a nade afterwards. This is also why an invisible wall like this, which allows bullets from just one side, would not be the best option.

Throwing grenade back is not allowed because it can kill or damage also other players who are currently inside that spawn. As it can do damage to multiple players simultaneously we count nade as heavy weapon. If someone stays in spawn and throws nades out or shoots mortar - it is allowed to enter / pass that spawn and return fire with light weapon. But its important to keep in mind that you cannot be agressor in that spawn but you can only fire back.

18 hours ago, Oldman said:

Maybe establish a soft-kick variation that let's one rejoin within a minute wait time or so? I mean, since I now have been kicked, just after opening a new beer to accompany the map, I can tell you it's annoying enough, if you had just warmed up and fun playing.

We dont tolerate rulebreaking. And to let the cooldown be just 1 minute will not make the rulebreaker to think back and reflect on what he did wrong.

a) Kick without warning first is not common practise in our server. If you see in chat that you or others are warned because they broke some rules then learn from it. If something is going out of hand, then its common practise to announce in public chat that from some moment forward - all punishments for breaking rules can be stronger than just a warn. If I see 3 people in row throing grenades in axis Oasis last spawn and killing people inside there, I do one round of warning and then inform that everyone who will do it again will be booted off. 

b) command  !rules is there to use for everyone

c) it is always okay to ask member (whatever level they have) in game, in discord or in forum if something is or is not allowed. Chicken nugget asked some info about something some time ago and instead of going over the line and getting punished, he understood well where the line is drawn and kept his act cool and fine within rules.

d) kick is designed to be annoying. but its surely less annoying than getting banned

18 hours ago, Oldman said:

Imho, a kick should be ultima ratio; if there are milder ways, like a warning, use them. Putting a wall of text in chat at the beginning of the match will not help much, since people - at least me - don't read it, or rather have no chance to read it. Warnings to others might also often go unread.

Use !rules is my best suggestion. Not knowing the law does not make someone innocent. It is the same way in real life. What is allowed where I live might not be allowed to where I travel. And when I am guest there, I act according their rules. Mostly !warn is used and the mistake is explained but we also keep an eye and if you do something against rules over and over again, then be ready that after 1st warning, the 2nd and 3rd can be skipped and you may be awarded with well-earned !kick. We follow the rules and expect our members, guests, owners etc to follow them. But if someone clearly do not like to play there on same terms as others than actions will be taken.  

18 hours ago, Oldman said:

Don't just enforce the rules because you have rules. In the end, they should imho prevent unfair practices that kill the fun not only for newer players. That being said, it's something different if someone intuitively throws a nade in spawn direction, without much thinking about it, or if someone places and airstrike and blocks the spawn exit. SK is not equal SK.

I have been here more than 3 years and I have not seen someone who is new to be booted off when they break rules. !warn is usually handed with information what was done wrong and if they have questions - we will answer them. That "intuitively thrown nade that lands in spawn" can also kill and gib team only engineer for example and decide the endresult of the game. SK is equal to SK because its unfair to whoever is at the receiving end. The effect can be small or mighty but SK is still SK. If you run through axis spawn in goldrush, drop a grenade and did that by mistake and turn back and prone over the nade or say sorry immediatelly in chat then it is handled much more softer because on cannot pick up his mistakenly dropped grenade. 

 

19 hours ago, Oldman said:

When banning, consider that you have sort of a monopoly - it seems there are not many servers left today, which are well adminstrated, and well visited. Or did I oversee them?

First of all, to receive a ban - you have to do something extremely bad. If you could see the comparison between the amounts of ban or kick or warn given out, then I reckon its like 80% are warns, 18% are kicks and 2% are bans. Maybe it can be even more lopsided.

When we use warn, kick, mute, ban - whatever "tool" to keep some order in server then its not to show power but to keep that stability that every player ingame has equal chance to attack the object or defend it and if someone abuses others then they will be "made equal" or "taken out of equasion". If we lose 3 players who do not care about rules and that the space in server is shared by everyone but keep 2 players then I reckon its a quality over quantity deal that we take every day. We have followed that somewhat strict all the time and Im confident that because we are well administrated we are also well visited.

 

19 hours ago, Oldman said:

Lastly, for a better discussion culture, I'd suggest you don't close threads, let only Muppets reopen it so they can add thoughts, and re-close them again immediately afterwards. It's feels like gagging registrants, who might still have something to add. ;-)

I understand you mean Jessica responding to your topic about him although Jesus closed it for review - im sure it will discussed if found necessary.


If you have any further question - let me know.

 

C#

 

 

[Sebast1an]

Sorry if you answered this but I really won't read your book to find the answer. Figured it's easier to just ask. Is it allowed to kill a player in their spawn, knowing they have not spawned recently but are also not technically shooting back?

For example: You see a player heal themselves in their spawn. Or you shoot at someone who runs to their spawn to heal and then dies there.

Map scenario (Oasis): Axis player heals at the final spawn area and an allied player goes by towards the north gun. Sees the axis player through the gateway healing and kills him from a distance.

Another map scenario would be ET_Beach: Axis player spawns near the transmitter, down the ladder. He leaves the spawn (but not the bunker) to look at the stairs and an allied player shoots him. Axis player doesn't shoot back but rather goes to the spawnpoint to heal but allied player follows and kills him inside the spawn.

Are these scenarios within the rules or is it classified as spawnkill?

[Matu]

1 hour ago, Sebast1an said:

Map scenario (Oasis): Axis player heals at the final spawn area and an allied player goes by towards the north gun. Sees the axis player through the gateway healing and kills him from a distance.

SK.

(You may only shoot enemy in his spawn when he shoots you first).

1 hour ago, Sebast1an said:

Another map scenario would be ET_Beach: Axis player spawns near the transmitter, down the ladder. He leaves the spawn (but not the bunker) to look at the stairs and an allied player shoots him. Axis player doesn't shoot back but rather goes to the spawnpoint to heal but allied player follows and kills him inside the spawn.

Pretty stupid scenario but still SK.:D(You may only shoot enemy in his spawn when he shoots you first).

I have experienced similar scenarios,i just ignore them if it happens once a year.No point of arguing that "technically" i have right.All this argueing and typing ruins gameplay for all players and i cant help my team while i do that.If this happens often,then clearly theres a need to explain stuff.

We would rather see that players wont follow rules close to the line and look for weak spots.Normal guy wont chase around enemy to his spawn or shoot people in spawn to get easy kill and hoping not get caught.Instead he doing objective.

If you have any scenarios,please provide;)

 

[Poyer]

Hi Sebast1an,

That are some serious specific questions! Let me respond with my thoughts (for what they're worth ).

You are right to say that, as for our 'main Legacy server' spawnkill isn't allowed as such (like right after losing spawn protection you start shooting them while they are still in spawn isn't allowed). On the other hand: if the enemy (in your example Axis) starts shooting at you while that specific enemy is still in his/her spawn (or even start shooting with his/her spawn protection active, which will be deactivated as soon as they start shooting at you) you are allowed to shoot back! So if an enemy starts shooting at you while you are running through their spawn, you may shoot back even though the enemy is in her/his spawn .

As for players "seeking safe haven in spawn to heal themselves": in my opinion that's not spawnkilling, since the player has already moved out of spawn to fight and then goes back. Even if the player went out of spawn and didn't fight (but got hit by mortar or artillery or something) and then goes back into spawn to heal himself/herself, my opinion still stands that by killing this player within the spawnarea isn't spawnkilling (because he went out of spawn already).

The other question you asked is more difficult to answer, because if you just see someone healing in spawn, not knowing where (s)he came from... you don't actually know if (s)he's been in a fight and is "looking for safe haven in spawn to heal himself/herself" or if (s)he just spawned and gives himself/herself the one package needed to have 156HP...

Thus, to summarize my opinion: if an enemy went out of spawn to fight (or got hit by mortar/artillery or whatsoever) and goes back into spawn to "seek safe haven to heal himself/herself" and you go right after him/her and kill him/her within spawnarea, that's no spawnkilling in my opinion. The other possibility you suggest: you can't possible tell that someone is healing from battle/mortar/artillery or just giving himself/herself the last package to get 156HP... so that COULD be spawnkilling (if the particular player hasn't been out of spawn yet). To conclude: if an enemy starts shooting at you from within his/her spawn, then you are allowed to shoot back at this particular player.

Oh and yes, this seem to be a small book as well . Really curious about what other muppets think by the way, since I'm not the one with all the knowledge here. Just gave my two cents for what's it worth .

 

Edit: after reading Matu his post I would like to add/clarify that it would qualify as spawnkilling if you kill an enemy that indeed DIDN'T move out of his/her spawn and DIDN'T shoot at you.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Poyer

[Sebast1an]

Thanks for the responses, I guess it's a bit more clear now.

 

2 hours ago, Matu said:

Pretty stupid scenario but still SK.:D(You may only shoot enemy in his spawn when he shoots you first).

I have experienced similar scenarios,i just ignore them if it happens once a year.No point of arguing that "technically" i have right.

Actually I find this happens all the time on ET_Beach while spawnpassing as an allied player. You are bound to run into someone and quite regularly they will move to the spawn to avoid being killed. And as I've been warned for this before, I wanted to clarify it for myself now that there's a topic about sk rules.

Your responses show a mixed opinion so I guess it's up to whoever is online at the time. Cheers.

[Matu]

At the moment rules say"you may shoot in spawn ONLY when you get shot" 

The reason for that is we dont want to make rules hard to understand.You cant determinate,who went outside,who healed himself or who was idle.The current rules are the easyest to follow and moderate!

(Srry if my english isnt the best atm.damn tuborg)

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Charlie

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, Matu said:

(Srry if my english isnt the best atm.damn tuborg)

Cheers!

[Charlie]

Nipping it in the bud here. Any issues previously posted are being discussed in the relevant sections.

This is a discussion about the sk rules so please keep it to that. Thanks for coming to the forums and asking about them  

[Oldman]

Hey gents,

First of all thank you all for taking the time to answer, and also to extend the thread; this is far more than I expected. :-) But the Muppet servers seem to have become a living room for many folks from all around the world, and not everyone wears a TM tag. To prevent unnessecary confusion and frustration, it’s probably good to discuss, refresh, clarify and document this topic from time to time, since there still seem to be a few gray areas, or, as @Sebast1an imho summarised it well: responses show a mixed opinion so I guess it's up to whoever is online at the time.

 

@MrMuppet

Quote

I can only apologise that the topic was not again opened to accept replies in public, it was not meant to censor your concerns. 

No worries and no need to excuse, I don’t need to have a last word on things. It was more a suggestion to keep in mind maybe for future posts & critics especially from new people in the forum, and how these are being handled. 

 

 

@divine_one & @Ctrz

Quote

Ad 1. The problem is that a grenade (or any other heavy weapon) thrown at a spawn can kill several players or not the one that was intended. Light weapoms as an answer for attacking spawner are allowed

Quote

Throwing grenade back is not allowed because it can kill or damage also other players who are currently inside that spawn. As it can do damage to multiple players simultaneously we count nade as heavy weapon

I get the argument. Yet it appears a bit artificial/auxiliary, given that light weapons might also do damage to multiple players simultaneously, even if you are capable of shooting with a m00f‘ish headshot accurary. But ok, a nade inflicts area damage, and the likelihood that it impacts more players is probably higher. Not 100% sound, but got it.      

 

 

@divine_one

Quote

Sometimes our decisions / actions may seem unpopular or harmful, but we really try our best. It's just hard to please everyone. And honestly, we have a very few main rules to follow...

Absolutely understand, and in general I haven’t experienced nothing else, which is also why I loved to play.

Quote

Of course we have some other useful commands like freeze or gib, but I have personally seen many times that a frozen player just asked why his mouse or keyboard is not working, reconnected and still spawnkilling. So, again, !kick IS the final solution giving us a chance to draw players attention.

Didn’t know about freeze and gib. But explains why I have seen a player exactly asking that. :-D  If things go out of control, which has been mentioned in another thread as something to occur often, maybe pause the game? That might be annoying to to larger part, if it happen often, but this certrainly catches attention from everyone and offers an opportunity to clarify things.

 

 

 

@Ctrz

Quote

As long as spawn can be captured back by other team, its okay to kill inside there or camp the exit with every weapon except mortar.

Just to make sure: Capturable includes destroyable? Think of Braundorf: 2nd allies spawn in map phase 2, which can be satcheled, but afaik not build by Axis. Similarely, the near-bridge spawn on Goldrush. As an axis player, I could nade and block the spawn exit, and it would not be considered SK? (I’m not skilled enough to do so, and it feels unfair, anyway, but just for clarity :-D ) 

Quote

 Usually those spawns are surrounded by walls and between walls is the spawn and the way out to next room is considered spawnexit.

Yes, this is a good heuristic. However, it fails sometimes – e.g. if leaves unclear where the first Allied spawn on Goldrush ends.

Quote

players (who are in team that is not spawning there) are allowed to pass through this spawn and return fire with light weapon when getting shot first from spawning enemy. When spawned enemy goes out and comes back to spawn then they are free to be killed with light weapons immediatelly.

Understood. However, allowing to just return fire, is imho effectively a death penalty to the passing player, given the pace oft he game, and the criticalness to be the one shooting first in a 1on1 situation. Furthermore, I would not be able to pass the lower bunker entry on Beach, because up the stairs is an Axis spawn, which then has an unfair advantage. In practice this rule will be hard to prove and enforce anyway, I think. But maybe that’s the reason why it isn’t really enforced, is it?

Quote

That is why we have a rule in Oasis that we dont allow heavy weapons past broken wall for axis because allies have by default only one way out from that area (as the waterpump exit is a object to complete on its own). We dont allow arty or heavy guns to block the Supply depot flagexit for allies as strike/arty/mortar can block both ways out and in Erdenberg the little area in front of Allied flag spawn is also the only way out for allies. Also area in front of Axis flag spawn in Caen should stay arty-mortar etc free as there is no other way out.

I wasn’t aware of map specific rules either. Very good to know. They all make sense to me, because I remember how annoying e.g. the mortar on Oasis can be. Artillery and mortar on the Caen  exit are similarely annoying, and it’s difficult to get out on the other three exists (window + the two narrow corridors, where players stack up behind each other).  (I mixed up Caen and Venice; are there rules for Venice, too?)

Quote

Use !rules is my best suggestion. Not knowing the law does not make someone innocent.

I thought I knew the basic set of rules. ;-) My point was mainly the gray areas, of which now a few have been uncovered and clarified, as well as presumably arbitrary decision: Admin A handles things different compared to Admin B. 

 

 

 

In the end, any rules probably will never be perfect for everyone and be able to cover all situations. So with a wink, and in the veins of Monty Python, I add that if two opposing spawn mortars kill each other about simultanously on Goldrush, admins kicks themselves. ;-)


Thanks again and have a great weekend,
Oldman

Edited May 16, 2020 by Oldman

[Ctrz]

9 hours ago, Oldman said:

Just to make sure: Capturable includes destroyable? Think of Braundorf: 2nd allies spawn in map phase 2, which can be satcheled, but afaik not build by Axis. Similarely, the near-bridge spawn on Goldrush. As an axis player, I could nade and block the spawn exit, and it would not be considered SK? (I’m not skilled enough to do so, and it feels unfair, anyway, but just for clarity :-D ) 

Yes, this is a good heuristic. However, it fails sometimes – e.g. if leaves unclear where the first Allied spawn on Goldrush ends.

Its what I describe here as:
" spawns that are capturable by one team by capturing flag or building CP " .  I made them separate point because as long as the room is not a spawnpoint there are no rules that denies shooting any weapon in there. Bremen CP spawn & goldrush near bridge spawn & braundorf CP & frostbite CP spawn & snatch CP spawn &  fueldump CP spawn (& ... ) are all just empty rooms as long as CP is not built or it is built but destroyed.

So both of you exampled spawns, as long as they can be captured only by 1 team by building CP are free to shoot indoors as long as CP is not built and enemy does not have spawnpoint there. As soon as CP is built and allies can spawn there you cannot shoot mortar inside AND cannot spawnexit with mortar but you are free to use any weapon inside or camping exit. 
 

9 hours ago, Oldman said:

Understood. However, allowing to just return fire, is imho effectively a death penalty to the passing player, given the pace oft he game, and the criticalness to be the one shooting first in a 1on1 situation. Furthermore, I would not be able to pass the lower bunker entry on Beach, because up the stairs is an Axis spawn, which then has an unfair advantage. In practice this rule will be hard to prove and enforce anyway, I think. But maybe that’s the reason why it isn’t really enforced, is it?

Well. There are ways to the objective without passing enemy spawn. Thats why that rule can be enforced and makes more sense. Attacker usually has a chance to choose their route to objective and to evaluate if spawning enemy can cause harm or not. Defender has mostly no other option than to spawn there. It is balanced in its unusual way.

9 hours ago, Oldman said:

I wasn’t aware of map specific rules either. Very good to know. They all make sense to me, because I remember how annoying e.g. the mortar on Oasis can be. Artillery and mortar on the Caen  exit are similarely annoying, and it’s difficult to get out on the other three exists (window + the two narrow corridors, where players stack up behind each other).  (I mixed up Caen and Venice; are there rules for Venice, too?)

Yes. Spawn is the room where you spawn and spawnexits are the doorways outside from that building. 2 in front, 1 upstairs and 1 in the back.

 

With mortar there is usually (at least for me) common sense in play - if player can see where mortar is landing and can choose to go same direction but avoid mortar then its not on spawnexit. As soon as player is exiting the spawn and has no other option after seeing mortar than go back in spawn then we call it "mortar on spawnexit" and do not allow it.

 

10 hours ago, Oldman said:

I thought I knew the basic set of rules. ;-) My point was mainly the gray areas, of which now a few have been uncovered and clarified, as well as presumably arbitrary decision: Admin A handles things different compared to Admin B. 

If you  know basics, then you should live long an prosper. As soon as you go exploring gray areas, there fingers can be burned. 

And as in life in general -  it is not black and white. No 2 situations are the same. For example. Oasis. Panzerplayer passes spawn accidentally in the middle of passing will fire it (and maybe kills himself/herself) and no harm is done to enemy - we are not gonna kick or mostly no even gonna warn as we can see - it was accident. But if someone shoot it in or into spawn on purpose, it can cause warn or even direct kick - depens who it was, what was the damage etc.

Best thing to do when rules are broken by accident is to apologize. Kick or warn or ban is not automated but given out by one or multiple people who can see the situation very differently from the player in question and without added info will make some judgement. 99.9% those judgements are valid and correct.

 

Hopefully cleared all your questions, but if you want anything else explained or discussed - let me know. I can say and @Eagle_cz can confirm how rebellious I was and sometimes still am about some rules or habits that we have in server. But I have understood and accept them and will stand for them because they have been put together based on long observation, experience, common sense and discussion. 

C#

[Stumpel]

I have seen like example when gaming time has like 6-7sec left, guy with flamer runs to CP spawn (in frostbite) and start flame guys there.. <-------------------"They think its ok because map is ending, but it isnt.."

[Ctrz]

On 5/18/2020 at 11:28 AM, Stumpel said:

I have seen like example when gaming time has like 6-7sec left, guy with flamer runs to CP spawn (in frostbite) and start flame guys there.. <-------------------"They think its ok because map is ending, but it isnt.."

If he shoots teammates, its not okay. If he shoots enemy, it is totally okay.