team balance- how often shuffle

[weeds]

Hello again!

I saw similar topic but it is closed

I'm wondering how to solve a  problem of i will name it "all star" teams, especially in a specific case when after shuffle  people inentionally join spec and swap to make one team better than another and as a final result shuffle doesn't work? Maybe just pust such  guy spec with kind adnotation "you are too god for this team" or shuffle again next map? Very often there is situation that people are complaining about shuffle because it was already done for example 2-3 maps ago, but what's the point of a game if those  2-3 15-20 minutes maps were finished within 3-5 minutes, or on the other hand after 20 minutes attacking team barely leave their first spawn? Shuffle Vote as a tool unfortunetly is quite not effective becasue most often half of players don't vote at all and the winning team mostly want to keep them winnig so they vote no. Maybe just the only remaing solution is don't care and let the majority of players realize that such game is pointless, or maybe more shuffle in such uneven competition?

 

Cheers, enjoy sunday!

 

[weeds]

Just to precise I am not talking about situation where one team is loosing all time but game is even. I just mean situation when one side is clearly crushing another one

[Sebast1an]

It is often the case that the initial shuffle makes the teams fairer (by the odds calculated by the game) but then people go spec/swap teams and it goes to shit again. But I think I've seen some discussion about this earlier and then the conclusion was that however annoying, people have the right to choose their teams and it wasn't encouraged to force their hand.

I think admins shouldn't be afraid to shuffle if maps are being ended in 3 minutes - even if it has just been done a map before. Certainly shouldn't rely on the shuffle vote to pass first as that is rarely the case. But shuffle with a little consideration - note how the map ended. Was it that the other outskilled the other (-> shuffle) or for example good cvops play (-> don't shuffle, give it another map as the teams could still be fair on another map).

[Ctrz]

36 minutes ago, Sebast1an said:

It is often the case that the initial shuffle makes the teams fairer (by the odds calculated by the game) but then people go spec/swap teams and it goes to shit again. But I think I've seen some discussion about this earlier and then the conclusion was that however annoying, people have the right to choose their teams and it wasn't encouraged to force their hand.

I think admins shouldn't be afraid to shuffle if maps are being ended in 3 minutes - even if it has just been done a map before. Certainly shouldn't rely on the shuffle vote to pass first as that is rarely the case. But shuffle with a little consideration - note how the map ended. Was it that the other outskilled the other (-> shuffle) or for example good cvops play (-> don't shuffle, give it another map as the teams could still be fair on another map).

I have always appreciate how you think. You would do great things and would help to improve community as member for sure. Join our ranks and lets try to help this case. 

Overall, as long as majority in server & community are vocal to support fair gameplay, even teams, good athmosphere - it is possible to achieve it. But if few complain, few countercomplain and majority stays quiet and just are in "it is what it is" mindset - its not gonna improve much im afraid.

If you ever need help with someone with big ego who deliberately makes game/teams very uneven and unbalanced then PM me or other senior members in discord and we will help those people out.

[Dragonkiss]

Well the answer is simple I guess. As TM member you should do  your best to balance out teams when they are unbalanced. I sometimes switch like 4 or 5 times in one map. Same should be for our better players. Just switch to the crushed team and make the game more balanced. 

I can help you out on numbers not on skilz sadly. so if the teamnumbers are not okey I switch. If the other team is killing it I usually try to switch to that side, as an 1337 teamkiller I usually bring back balance (joking of course) but I hope my fellow TM-ers get the idea. 

[Melissa]

Unbalanced teams is and will always be a point of discussion. Not because of specific rules that should change but just because of how the game is build. People are able to switch teams whenever they want (exception with the amount of players in the team ofc). If they are not happy with the team they'll just go spec and join the team they prever as soon as the spot comes free.

As TM members we often switch and that is what we should keep doing, if we only have players with the mindset of Sebast1an the problem will be solved forever  

If there are specific players that keep changing teams and make a big difference in the win probabilty (within a few minutes) we should write the name down and let the admins try to have a discussion with them. We will always have players that follow up our wishes and people who are completely agains it. I prefer there to be a one on one discussion with the player instead of an endless discussion in mainchat with 30 to 40 people watching and giving their opinion with or against it.

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Melissa

[Stumpel]

Its endless probelm still because people dont care about that banner which says teams are not  balanced... Doesnt matter is there TM's in team or not.. I try always switch if see that banner but, I know many others in TM not.. And if game picks that last player which joined to team, that guy mostly jumps out and leave or start wait  spot to jump back to team where he/she was.. So it its quite common that we see the banner blinkin on screen many times in every single map.. Just sayin.. So it doesnt help much to open topic about it, if nothing changes..

[Sebast1an]

23 hours ago, Ctrz said:

I have always appreciate how you think. You would do great things and would help to improve community as member for sure. Join our ranks and lets try to help this case.

Thanks but I'm fine as it is.

[Ctrz]

2 hours ago, Sebast1an said:

Thanks but I'm fine as it is.

I sadly know but door is always open for you  !

 

[FrenchPie]

9 hours ago, Stumpel said:

Its endless probelm still because people dont care about that banner which says teams are not  balanced... Doesnt matter is there TM's in team or not.. I try always switch if see that banner but, I know many others in TM not.. 

To be honest, I rarely balance the teams when the banner appears because there is an automatic balance. 

Moreover, I'm too bad player to pretend balance the teams only with my little support to the weaker team.I 'm neither Sebastian nor Moof 😋

That's the reason why I often propose a vote to !ShuffleSR, even if I'm in the stronger team.

But often the result of the vote is "No". So what to do in such a case? Respect the democracy and keep the teams unbalanced? (and the game crappy) Or shuffle despite the vote, and get some reproaches because of arbitrary decision? (It occurred some times).

By the way, I already noticed many times that Sebast1an switches when teams are unbalanced. Really nice and fair behavior. Super player! 👏

 

[Ctrz]

23 minutes ago, FrenchPie said:

So what to do in such a case? Respect the democracy and keep the teams unbalanced?

If you dont think your contribution will help then ask someone to help balance teams  

[Jessica]

How do we feel about a AUTO !SHUFFLESR between every map ?

[Ctrz]

51 minutes ago, Jessica said:

How do we feel about a AUTO !SHUFFLESR between every map ?

you  mean at every beginning of a round? 

[StarScream]

56 minutes ago, Jessica said:

How do we feel about a AUTO !SHUFFLESR between every map ?

I... like the idea but don't know how it would be received by the majority of players.

I suggest we try it for a few days, maybe with a message that this is an experiment and please give feedback on the forums.

Edited April 27, 2021 by StarScream

[Jessica]

@Charlie, @Eagle Is it possible to do a shuffle between every map ?

[Ctrz]

6 minutes ago, Jessica said:

@Charlie, @Eagle Is it possible to do a shuffle between every map ?

But when? At the end when people start to leave? At the beginning where some will leave because they dont like the map? And some are still connecting because they are loading the map?

If we could make warmup longer for every map, it would be please to start IMO.

[Mister J]

Team balance is topic of an ever going discussion. We've had countless threads on here about the issue and we tried so many things. In the end the conclusion has always been that the only way to keep teams balanced is to make people aware of team-balance and ask them to be considerate before joining a team. And sometimes maybe even swap mid-game in case people from the other team leave. It is something we expect from our members, and very much appreciate to see from friends, regulars and guests.  

Members can shuffle in warm-up but this is far from a guarantee for team-balance. In fact it often makes it worse as well. I have needed two or even three shuffles to get it a bit decent again. Force-shuffling every round will ruin the game once it would finally be balanced. Also, winning or loosing a round is often confused with unbalance. If teams were to be exactly 50-50, in theory the defending team would always win. 

My advice? Try swapping teams if your team is crushing the other; winning a round from a team that seems much stronger is the best fun you can have. Very often it takes one good medic with one good engi to take the round. Even if the rest of your team is crap. And accept that team-balance in games will always remain very peculiar.

[Stumpel]

If game auto shuffles in start of every map, then players might leave.. I think it does that kind of effect.. 

[Sebast1an]

On 4/27/2021 at 5:15 PM, Jessica said:

How do we feel about a AUTO !SHUFFLESR between every map ?

In theory, this would work if the shuffle made the teams fair every time and people would actually play the team they're shuffled into. But even shuffling by SR is a gamble because not everyones SR is proportional to their skill so you might as well end up with more unbalance. Also, people tend to prefer playing offence so if they're suddenly on Axis, they'll go to spec and wait for a spot on Allies which in return gives Allies the advantage in numbers from the getgo. On top of all this hassle you'd also get a lot of complaints from whiny little kids. So in my opinion it is not worth it.

Instead, I suggest the following (if possible): If during warmup the teams are uneven (one team is up by at least 2), the game would even the teams before the warmup ends. That way you'd atleast prevent the match from starting with uneven teams. Sometimes the unbalance from previous map causes people to leave, and so the next map starts with uneven teams. In certain maps that can easily be finished within 3 minutes (Braundorf, Adlernest, Frostbite to mention a few) an uneven start will result in another quick victory as the defence can't hold the first push due to lacking numbers.

That said, I think all admins should be told to always use !shufflesr instead of the regular shuffle. And if possible, make the shuffle-vote do it by SR as well, as that way it's not 100% random. Also, after you have shuffled note the chances of winning of each team and if they're still 90/10 or worse, shuffle again until it seems more even. You can't control people from swapping/leaving after but if you do this during warmup, then at least you've done all you could.

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, Sebast1an said:

But even shuffling by SR is a gamble because not everyones SR is proportional to their skill so you might as well end up with more unbalance.

Yeap. I play so seldom but still have 27SR or something and I dont think thats what my game is worth currently.

 

Also even teams before map starts is a good idea but not sure how easy it is to script.

[weeds]

Guy's i have a thought, maybe this one can help and maybe it s not so difficult to script. For the beging of the map like first 5 minutes the teams' bars (those u can check with tab button) would give info about Prestige only, the info about SR or XP will apear after first 5 minutes. This way it will be more difficult to check wich team is better so maybe people join more random?:)

[Eagle_cz]

15 hours ago, Sebast1an said:

always use !shufflesr instead of the regular shuffle

both commands will do the same "shuffle_teams_sr_norestart" (it's customized in our WA version)

On 4/28/2021 at 12:17 AM, Jessica said:

@Charlie, @Eagle Is it possible to do a shuffle between every map ?

yes, but i'm not sure that this is what we want to.

15 hours ago, Sebast1an said:

If during warmup the teams are uneven (one team is up by at least 2), the game would even the teams before the warmup ends

this can be done by lua if needed/requested.

 

...lot of opinions above. But there is no win-win solution imo. From my point of view only active members/admins can use their brain for to think about when the game is uneven and then they can do some actions agains that. They can ask someone to join another side, they can do shuffle, they can do put (inactive players) and lot of another options ... any type of program (lua or whatever) will not solve all the problems - only active members with brain can do that trick...

[Ctrz]

2 hours ago, Eagle_cz said:

...lot of opinions above. But there is no win-win solution imo. From my point of view only active members/admins can use their brain for to think about when the game is uneven and then they can do some actions agains that. They can ask someone to join another side, they can do shuffle, they can do put (inactive players) and lot of another options ... any type of program (lua or whatever) will not solve all the problems - only active members with brain can do that trick...

I'm just afraid that it doesnt take long time to people start abusing the system and go to spec as soon as map is over to then change whatever team they like and were back where we started.

[Matu]

@Eagle_cz shufflexp based on ended map xp would give the closest even teams for the next map.ofc i understand it must be done after map is ended and new one havent started.

Would be great additional option for us in this thing.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Matu

[StarScream]

4 hours ago, Ctrz said:

I'm just afraid that it doesnt take long time to people start abusing the system and go to spec as soon as map is over to then change whatever team they like and were back where we started.

Unfortunately, any automated solution will inevitably fall to this. Good point.