Caen2 Spawntimes

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, uips said:

Allied respawn time is 16secs right now. Was it not made higher to make it easier for axis to capture flag? Or is it changed back to 16 on purpose. 

First part of the map has very limited access over whole are and gets easily very boring and always is harder for axis. 20vs20 games map has a lot more to offer if flag is not the biggest milestone.   I think most of the games Axis should be able to get the flag for game to be balanced and fun, not the other way around. (Imagine being stuck on flag capture at Special Delivery map).

I would same its equal with supply depot where you can either capture flag or blow up door and in caen you either capture flag or repair tank.

I think the biggest evener was done with disabling mortars in caen. Axis do have decent chance to get flag because they can also opt to steal uniform and open one extra door. 

 

1 hour ago, uips said:

Now about the gate part an idea or suggestion to mappers. Its often spam satchel and repair over and over situation. I think it would be good idea to give axis the access to the construction site as well in form of MG nest or just sandbags  to aid axis + the gate cant be constructed back that fast, need to satchel up the axis construction before the gate can be rebuilt. It should make the axis part easier and have more involvement of engineers form axis part and give a objective for covert ops as allies.

 If you consider the fact that you need to be pretty open to build gate back and it can be spammed with panzer, rnade and mg42 for example then its not too easy for axis to build it back. I think also the possibility to blow gate up with satchel after 1 succesful dyna is balancing also that area well. 

Caen is one of those maps like supply where the success of the first stage for attackers depends greatly on the fact if everyone in team is doing their own thing or they are actually somewhat teamplaying.

[Dmxj]

Hey @uips

Mapwise i think in a 20v20 situation it's pretty balanced in my opinion if you can satchel that side gate insteat of planting a dyna and wait 30s its way faster.

1 normal way - 1 side way + 1 way with covie ops + suit like @Ctrz mentioned, to capture the flag 

The only thing what can destroy the first part are indeed the spawntimes. The difference between axis and allies spawn is indeed in my opinion to small.

Might need a small change and make it 12 (axis)  and 18 or 20 (allies) and this will be increase the benefit for axis at the last part aswell because they have to walk alot to the final endpoint.

About the timebonusses i would suggest to wait what the difference is with spawntimes if it's still unbalanced as you say we could reduce the first part in time

Edited February 1, 2022 by Dmxj

[Ctrz]

46 minutes ago, Dmxj said:

Might need a small change and make it 12 (axis)  and 18 or 20 (allies) and this will be increase the benefit for axis at the last part aswell because they have to walk alot to the final endpoint.

I would say decrease axis spawntime to 8-10 rather than increase allies to 20. Allies last spawn is pretty spammable on the way to the objective so if you die before obj is taken then the run from obj room to boat can be shorter than respawn, which isnt too good. 

[uips]

31 minutes ago, Ctrz said:

If you consider the fact that you need to be pretty open to build gate back and it can be spammed with panzer, rnade and mg42 for example then its not too easy for axis to build it back. I think also the possibility to blow gate up with satchel after 1 succesful dyna is balancing also that area well. 

In my opinion, still most of the games where it is stuck in first part, gate is being rebuilt by allies fast and whenever the gate is up axis team has only 1 open way to go. Now about that particular Construction pile Currently accessed by Allies engineer to construct gate that can be destroyed by axis covert ops. (Now this event of things gets stuck in the same routine whenever axis get hard stuck). Now if that Construction pile was neutral and given access to Axis engineer to build something to aid axis in the gate part. Also only one objective can be active at one time, If axis destroy gate and build whatever resource kit now allies need first to destroy what axis built in order to get the construction pile to rebuild the gate back. I Feel like this would involve more classes in the importance of success in the gate part and give chance for axis to get more control over the gate are in order to keep 2nd way for axis more open. Just an idea that i think would work.

 

34 minutes ago, Dmxj said:

Might need a small change and make it 12 (axis)  and 18 or 20 (allies) and this will be increase the benefit for axis at the last part aswell because they have to walk alot to the final endpoint.

I think those extra 2-4 secs of allies spawn times might be the easiest tweak to give the bigger opening window for axis to capture the flag better. Caen in general feels good map when its not stuck in first part forever. Not and easy map for axis for sure. More hard struggles to come in next parts, the tank can be stuck in the end  and the documents part can be hard too. Thats why i think the flag part should not feel like hardest part of the game and this objective should feel easier for axis.

[uips]

5 minutes ago, Ctrz said:

I would say decrease axis spawntime to 8-10 rather than increase allies to 20. Allies last spawn is pretty spammable on the way to the objective so if you die before obj is taken then the run from obj room to boat can be shorter than respawn, which isnt too good. 

Could work too. Arent the spawn times adjustable for each part? like it could revert back to normal once tank has started?

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, uips said:

In my opinion, still most of the games where it is stuck in first part, gate is being rebuilt by allies fast and whenever the gate is up axis team has only 1 open way to go. Now about that particular Construction pile Currently accessed by Allies engineer to construct gate that can be destroyed by axis covert ops. (Now this event of things gets stuck in the same routine whenever axis get hard stuck). Now if that Construction pile was neutral and given access to Axis engineer to build something to aid axis in the gate part. Also only one objective can be active at one time, If axis destroy gate and build whatever resource kit now allies need first to destroy what axis built in order to get the construction pile to rebuild the gate back. I Feel like this would involve more classes in the importance of success in the gate part and give chance for axis to get more control over the gate are in order to keep 2nd way for axis more open. Just an idea that i think would work.

 

I think those extra 2-4 secs of allies spawn times might be the easiest tweak to give the bigger opening window for axis to capture the flag better. Caen in general feels good map when its not stuck in first part forever. Not and easy map for axis for sure. More hard struggles to come in next parts, the tank can be stuck in the end  and the documents part can be hard too. Thats why i think the flag part should not feel like hardest part of the game and this objective should feel easier for axis.

I have still no clue why you just dont stop allies engineer from building gate? There is endless amount of possibilities. You can position mg42 safely opposite side of street to camp that place. You can place panzer there, engineers with rifle nades, throw other nades etc. You can also just walk in few meters and throw airstrike can, use smoke etc. It is very open area for rebuilding and if allies manage to rebuild the gate then it usually happens because other axis players dont put pressure on that area. If you just kill one engi there, then the same covie who satcheled the door can take uniform and open the door which gives one more way in to the flag.

It is just pub play and people do .. weird stuff. It is like driving the druck indoors in supply and then complain how hard the main gate is to plant. Cant fix that mindset with added buildable stuff or different spawntimes.

[uips]

13 minutes ago, Ctrz said:

I have still no clue why you just dont stop allies engineer from building gate? There is endless amount of possibilities. You can position mg42 safely opposite side of street to camp that place. You can place panzer there, engineers with rifle nades, throw other nades etc. You can also just walk in few meters and throw airstrike can, use smoke etc. It is very open area for rebuilding and if allies manage to rebuild the gate then it usually happens because other axis players dont put pressure on that area. If you just kill one engi there, then the same covie who satcheled the door can take uniform and open the door which gives one more way in to the flag.

It is just pub play and people do .. weird stuff. It is like driving the druck indoors in supply and then complain how hard the main gate is to plant. Cant fix that mindset with added buildable stuff or different spawntimes.

I guess in public often games dont go the most optimal way . Now if u mentioned supply truck that is also an endless problem. "Public games" There is always someone who drives it in and sometimes gets flamed by "people who know better". But there is  always something to do to make things better. For example Public version of map where truck waits on top of hill until the gate is blown. No more noob driving it in.

[Charlie]

On 6/7/2021 at 7:48 PM, MrMuppet said:

Currently:

set g_useraxisrespawntime 12 
set g_useralliedrespawntime 18
set g_userTimeLimit 20

 

7 hours ago, MiniMuppet said:

set g_useraxisrespawntime 12 
set g_useralliedrespawntime 16
set g_userTimeLimit 15

Wait a minute ... I changed the spawn times by a few seconds months and months ago. I was hesitant to change it more than a second or two due to how different attacking the first and second part are. Did I change the wrong teams spawn time and no-one noticed?  Pretty sure I didn't change the time limit though.

[Dmxj]

@Charlie timelimit is correct now because etl1 makes use of time bonusses on caen 15 + 5 + 5 i think

Edited February 1, 2022 by Dmxj

[Ande]

I should test with few secs more span time in allies.. first part is really hard for axis

Edited February 2, 2022 by Ande

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, Ande said:

I should test with few secs more span time in allies.. first part is really hard for axis

But longer spawntime for allies doesn't help axis to reach objectives quicker. Axis spawntime should be shorter so they can attack more times over the mapsession. If allies doesnt die while holding positions and defending (especially with flag and how close they spawn) then making their spawntime longer will have very little effect if any. But if you decrease axis spawntime and through that increase number of attacks per mapsession then it has effect on the outcome. 

If we have 10s spawntime for axis instead of 12s (as right now) then they can have 6 attacks per minute instead of 5. Thats 20% more. 

[Dmxj]

We also can script the side gate, once it is exploded it's not fixable anymore but i guess this will break the gameplay in total...

[sty]

The usual problem is that axis dont even bother to attack once the gate is destroyed. Very often they spam nades into the gate instead of going in.

Edited February 2, 2022 by sty

[uips]

5 hours ago, Ctrz said:

If we have 10s spawntime for axis instead of 12s (as right now) then they can have 6 attacks per minute instead of 5. Thats 20% more. 

On the other hand increasing axis spawn time might increase the average amount of players per one spawn increasing the firepower of one attacking group. Bigger group spawns might have better chance on forcing objective then lots of little groups. Again just a theory in game situations might be different.
About increasing Allies spawn. I often see full group of allies spawning like last few secs before axis player is about to capture the flag. completely shattering the hero moments of that one poor axis guy :D. Those extra 2 secs of allies spawn should increase the success of axis in cases like this. Hope we can reach a point where Caen does not feel like a map where axis will be stuck most of the time.

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, uips said:

On the other hand increasing axis spawn time might increase the average amount of players per one spawn increasing the firepower of one attacking group. Bigger group spawns might have better chance on forcing objective then lots of little groups. Again just a theory in game situations might be different.

Makes literally no sense. You can increase it to 1 minute but it will not be 5x as effective.

 

1 hour ago, uips said:

About increasing Allies spawn. I often see full group of allies spawning like last few secs before axis player is about to capture the flag. completely shattering the hero moments of that one poor axis guy :D. Those extra 2 secs of allies spawn should increase the success of axis in cases like this.

The probability to capture flag 1 sec after allied respawn is 5.5% (with 18sec spawntime) and 6.25% (with 16sec spawntime) so its a pretty minor improvement. 

[uips]

15 minutes ago, Ctrz said:

1 hour ago, uips said:

On the other hand increasing axis spawn time might increase the average amount of players per one spawn increasing the firepower of one attacking group. Bigger group spawns might have better chance on forcing objective then lots of little groups. Again just a theory in game situations might be different.

Makes literally no sense. You can increase it to 1 minute but it will not be 5x as effective.

Depends how u read statistics: u cant calculate it straight from numbers, need to have more data for that. For example increasing axis spawn time by 2-4secs will add X number of players to next spawn pool who die on those extra seconds. It also varies if it is 10vs10 or 20vs20. Giving perhaps the necessary spike needed to force back allies. As i mentioned dont have the data for the prediction as i dont have the number of X players dying per sec. I think easiest way is to just give test periods with different spawn times to see if anything will aid axis as those tweaks are rather easily changeable.

 

32 minutes ago, Ctrz said:

1 hour ago, uips said:

About increasing Allies spawn. I often see full group of allies spawning like last few secs before axis player is about to capture the flag. completely shattering the hero moments of that one poor axis guy :D. Those extra 2 secs of allies spawn should increase the success of axis in cases like this.

The probability to capture flag 1 sec after allied respawn is 5.5% (with 18sec spawntime) and 6.25% (with 16sec spawntime) so its a pretty minor improvement. 

Again comes down to how u read statistics. Dont have any data to back up anything but just for example if 50% of total flag captures happen in last -2secs before allies spawn. 50% gets denied in last +2 secs because allies could spawn. Now if u extend that time 2secs it will make those other 50% successful.
Total flag captures 4, 2 before spawn, 2 after spawn. in case of such numbers just by increasing allies spawn time by 2 secs will increase successful flag captures by 2x. That in terms on percentages is 100% increase and in terms of chance its 2x more to happen. Again the numbers are made up as i dont have the data gain to give the prediction. I think just testing with spawn times might be the easiest thing to do.

[Sebast1an]

Spawntimes and probabilities aside, many maps would be better if they skipped the first part entirely. I hope you can agree on some solution to make Caen a bit more balanced in the beginning.

[Ctrz]

3 hours ago, uips said:

Depends how u read statistics: u cant calculate it straight from numbers, need to have more data for that..

That's your mistake on this case. I did mathematical calculation only - which does not need further data because for calculating frequency of some events occurrence has no bias in normal case. I calculated it very much in general as I didnt take into account 1/10 of a second accuracy, probability of flag capturing not beeing registere by game due ping/lag etc 

 

But dont make mistake of guessing the numbers just becaue you feel like flag capture takes place always in last seconds. It rarely does as it usually needs timing and knowledge of enemies spawntime. 

 

You can test how much you like but maths cant be bent with such bias. Making spawntime 2 sec longer for defending team vs generating more spawncycles per minute to attacking team - first is just one fixed number, second is very exponential as it gives more medics to revive, more attackers to kill defenders and increasing the flag capture probability + tank building probability which also gives flag.

If you wanna talk more about maths or statistics or analysis - we can do that in some other tooic or place. Its just making this topic harder to handle.

 

1 hour ago, Sebast1an said:

Spawntimes and probabilities aside, many maps would be better if they skipped the first part entirely. I hope you can agree on some solution to make Caen a bit more balanced in the beginning.

Jusy remove the map then. Some maps are not meant for 20vs20 or add those new popular glassroofs over some very difficult bottleneck areas to make arty/strike less usable (for balance, it can be also added near allied last spawn). 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Ctrz

[uips]

Why i ment that flag capture last second, playing as allies i often times feel like you just spawn exact time to prevent axis from doing their thing and that can happen many times during one game. Just personal opinion what i see happening over multiple games. Thats why i feel like those few seconds could give better chance for axis, thats just an option. As i mentioned just testing with spawntimes might help and is probably easiest thing to try if there is interest in trying to make it little easier for axis.

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, uips said:

Why i ment that flag capture last second, playing as allies i often times feel like you just spawn exact time to prevent axis from doing their thing and that can happen many times during one game. Just personal opinion what i see happening over multiple games. Thats why i feel like those few seconds could give better chance for axis, thats just an option. As i mentioned just testing with spawntimes might help and is probably easiest thing to try if there is interest in trying to make it little easier for axis.

Well if you think that you can beat maths and probability equasions and rules then go ahead.  

[uips]

I think there are too many variables to accurately calculate something like that. And yup that 2sec longer spawn suggestion come from personal experience that is 54 games and 16.4hours of caen time. Now that might be a way to make the situation better or might be wrong.

Or decrease the spawn time of axis to increase the total time of axis players being alive rather then dead. if that can achieve desired outcome this should be considered for testing as well?

I really hope admins can pick something up from this thread to perhaps make the caen first part better.

Time bonus thing seems to work already. If it is impossible game for axis at least it will not last that long now.

 

[Ande]

Why to calcutate something? just add 1sec to allies spawntime and take 1sec less from axis and see what happens for example?

[Sebast1an]

On 2/2/2022 at 5:54 PM, Ctrz said:

The probability to capture flag 1 sec after allied respawn is 5.5% (with 18sec spawntime) and 6.25% (with 16sec spawntime) so its a pretty minor improvement. 

Your maths is a little elementary in this case. You assume it is as likely to capture the flag on any given second when I would argue that it is less likely if allies have just respawned and more likely the more allies are dead. But of course this is difficult to calculate accurately without sufficient data, seeing there are so many variables to consider.

I think you are both right. But as Ande said, to me the best solution would be to just experiment with it. I think you can't really go wrong here with a 2sec adjustment on either side.

[Ctrz]

43 minutes ago, Sebast1an said:

Your maths is a little elementary in this case. You assume it is as likely to capture the flag on any given second when I would argue that it is less likely if allies have just respawned and more likely the more allies are dead. But of course this is difficult to calculate accurately without sufficient data, seeing there are so many variables to consider.

I think you are both right. But as Ande said, to me the best solution would be to just experiment with it. I think you can't really go wrong here with a 2sec adjustment on either side.

I just stayed away from all variables that can differ from 0%-100% as for example there can be full team respawning vs noone which makes the full math needlessly difficult. Add the fact that time is not counted in full seconds and that teams spawntimers can also be not in sync tact wise makes broad calculations best for easy estimation.