Venice mortar

[Nanaa]

IMO, this bridge (circled red) in Venice should not be allowed for mortar. Preferably not even close to it so that you can safely go through the squeaky door.

Reasoning: it's 1 of the 2 exits from allied 2nd spawn. Siwa Oasis has the same layout basically and there old wall region is not allowed for mortar either.

This evening we had a game where axis was shooting at the center of the bridge for few minutes. So I brought up that it's sk area imo since you can't get around it easily without getting hurt. Others didn't seem to agree with me so Sty told me to make a topic for discussion.

-Nanaa

[Dmxj]

mmm, the fact there 2/3 exits it's difficult to ban a mortar at that point.

Tbh i follow ur opinion and i would do the same, let's see what the main admins think.

@Matu is the man in these situations!

[Nanaa]

4 hours ago, Dmxj said:

mmm, the fact there 2/3 exits it's difficult to ban a mortar at that point.

What do you mean by the 3rd exit? You have the door facing the canal and this bridge.

[Ctrz]

Is mortar at spawn exit not allowed - yes.

Is it a spawn exit - no. The exit from spawn is the doorway of that house (none of 4 doorwaysof that building are not allowed to be mortared) is not allowed to be mortared according to current ruleset. Bridge is further up the road and fine to be aimed at. If mortar lands close enough to damage people at spawn exit then by rules the people shooting mortar should move his aim further away.

Gold rush has same rules - you are supposed to be able to get away from spawn exit to open area without getting hit by mortar and in oasis - you should be able to go through small exit area near wall without getting hit also (as an alternative to the wall opening).

Would be better if you point out not area on map but what you have in mind exactly in the map (screenshot from map and point in there).

[Nanaa]

2 hours ago, Ctrz said:

Bridge is further up the road and fine to be aimed at.

you are supposed to be able to get away from spawn exit to open area without getting hit by mortar

Well, if you shoot at the A-spot, you can't get to an open space without getting hit, making that spawn exit useless:

B-spot might be even more annoying coz it cancels access to main road and squeaky door from both spawn exits. Well, ok you can enter that house via window jump too but I don't see many ppl doing it.

 

But in the end, the whole Venice 2nd phase heavily disfavors Allies. You'd need in previous map like 300-600 better ending score than Axis to have a proper chance. I think this map has like 10% win rate for allies. The problem is that every route for allies is a bottleneck or has a long, slow swim. Combine that with huge teams and the lethality of bottlenecks is multiplied. If Axis is able to setup heavy weapons, arties, snipers and crossfires at each bottleneck, it's pretty much game over for allies.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Nanaa

[Ctrz]

25 minutes ago, Nanaa said:

Well, if you shoot at the A-spot, you can't get to an open space without getting hit, making that spawn exit useless:

B-spot might be even more annoying coz it cancels access to main road and squeaky door from both spawn exits. Well, ok you can enter that house via window jump too but I don't see many ppl doing it.

 

But in the end, the whole Venice 2nd phase heavily disfavors Allies. You'd need in previous map like 300-600 better ending score than Axis to have a proper chance. I think this map has like 10% win rate for allies. The problem is that every route for allies is a bottleneck or has a long, slow swim. Combine that with huge teams and the lethality of bottlenecks is multiplied. If Axis is able to setup heavy weapons, arties, snipers and crossfires at each bottleneck, it's pretty much game over for allies.

I'd say A can be somewhat allowed on both scenarios (either axis or allies spawn in that building) depending on how far the impact from exit door actually is. Its not like you are 10cm out from spawn and then your on your own but it needs to be sensible (the green "rectangle") area where you shouldnt take damage. Same is in goldrush - there is a little room to go out until you can be hit with mortar. B is for sure allowed as it may be "annoying" but thats what defending is all about - closing the routes for allies to proceed forward to their objectives. You can still avoid it as mortar fire ist not as intense as mg42 for example (purple pathways) and it is a very important area for axis to keep clear when boat is beeing moves under the bridge you have in this picture to even have a chance to defent the last barrier and finish area.



Venice gets more out of balance the more defenders there is in the game. If you position 15-20 people in library, then its very hard to allies to get in. If you position in this picture them before tank goes past the fence, then its really difficoult to reach tank and to move it or even repair it. When tank is not broken, then axis can even use it to shoot allies down. But also, the more you can cut down axis reinforcements in 2nd phase of the game to the library, the better chance you have. Allies have for example every right to mortar the library main entrance to have as empty library as possible.

BTW, ty for the picture. Much easier to discuss.

[StarScream]

As the rules, IIRC, say no mortar NEAR spawn exits, there's definitely a case to be made that area A should be out of bounds.

However, I was playing when the mortar was there (when Nanaa was playing)  and all I had to do is use the green exit, step back and watch the sky, wait until the mortar had landed, then move. 

 

Remember: WATCH THE SKIES!

[Nanaa]

Ok, worth a try I guess. I don't think I've seen a game where allies won with mortar shooting at the bridge or at the B-spot though.

[Nanaa]

5 minutes ago, StarScream said:

As the rules, IIRC, say no mortar NEAR spawn exits, there's definitely a case to be made that area A should be out of bounds.

However, I was playing when the mortar was there (when Nanaa was playing)  and all I had to do is use the green exit, step back and watch the sky, wait until the mortar had landed, then move. 

 

Remember: WATCH THE SKIES!

 

Well true, you can can watch the sky and time move. But mortar-guy can counter this by alternating between A and B spots and different time intervals.

[Dmxj]

The only thing we could change is changing the mortar speed between 2 bullets.

Imo the recharge time for soldiers is a bit to fast for sure when uve got lvl 4

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, Dmxj said:

The only thing we could change is changing the mortar speed between 2 bullets.

Imo the recharge time for soldiers is a bit to fast for sure when uve got lvl 4

Or just add glass roofs to obv places where mortar can undisturbedly sit the entire game and make them use it more out in the open and be vunerable to be killed. In oasis its pretty hard to be axis mortar and shoot around wall area without beeing vunerable to allies because the axis spawn has glass roof and mortar have to sit then more out in the open.

[Jessica]

12 hours ago, Dmxj said:

mmm, the fact there 2/3 exits it's difficult to ban a mortar at that point.

The number of exits dont matter, A mortar at ANY exit is never allowed.

 

However, bridge can be anyoing, but its pretty far from spawn exit. You can exit safe.

IF you are hit while DIRECT out of spawn, it would be a problem

If we would colour this area red, in most other maps mortar cant be used at all. for example, Caen.

[Stumpel]

15 hours ago, Jessica said:

The number of exits dont matter, A mortar at ANY exit is never allowed.

 

However, bridge can be anyoing, but its pretty far from spawn exit. You can exit safe.

IF you are hit while DIRECT out of spawn, it would be a problem

If we would colour this area red, in most other maps mortar cant be used at all. for example, Caen.

Thank you for info again @Jessica sometimes have seen people sayin its ok if many exits but,  now when I see this I will know that always when mortar aims at any exitway from spawn its warning and kick and maybe if more then ban..

 

It means then in Goldrush too if mortar is front of second exit and aims there.. Its warn/kick/ban.. And other maps too.. 

[Stumpel]

in rules it says this:

 

Mortaring ANY spawn or spawnexits isnt allowed!

Artillery and other heavy weapons near spawnexit is allowed only when there is multible exits,otherwise its not allowed!

[Sebast1an]

Interesting discussion. Would love to see the mortar charge time increased but it's not a weapon I'm too familiar with so wouldn't know how good/bad it is currently. All I know is some guys who like to use it catch me like 10 times in a map which is rather annoying at times. But hey, 8 of those times is usually at the exact same spot so maybe it's a tiny bit my own fault as well.

As for the topic of this conversation, I understand your point Nanaa and I agree with you. Mortar effectively takes out the whole exit, rather easily in fact by hitting the bridge. However, according to the current rules in place neither spot A or B is considered the spawn exit. Therefore I would argue that mortaring the bridge and beyond is within the current rules. If we discuss the topic of adding a separate rule only for Venice, as there is on Oasis about heavy beyond the broken wall, I would disallow mortaring the bridge but keep spot B as fair game. Spot A could be argued as a spawnexit area, where as spot B is definitely not an exit area of any kind.

There are some other instances as well where some spawnkill rules don't really make sense but it is difficult to come up with universal rules for every single instance, seeing as there are dozens of maps in the rotation. I think the current ruleset works wonders for most maps which is all you could really ask for.

[Ctrz]

42 minutes ago, Sebast1an said:

There are some other instances as well where some spawnkill rules don't really make sense

Would love to hear about them and discuss them through. Rules are not here to stay the same forever - if we find better solution to ensure equal and good gameplay for all then surely TM is willing to overlook set rules.
 

42 minutes ago, Sebast1an said:

Interesting discussion. Would love to see the mortar charge time increased but it's not a weapon I'm too familiar with so wouldn't know how good/bad it is currently. All I know is some guys who like to use it catch me like 10 times in a map which is rather annoying at times. But hey, 8 of those times is usually at the exact same spot so maybe it's a tiny bit my own fault as well.

Thats usually the case for mortar and arty/strikes that they are there to tactically block some route to the objective. They can be tedious and irritating but with arty/strike smoke is visible and you are not able to spam mortar so often that there is no safe moment between shots.  For some reason, a lot of people forget the tactical approach to the game and try to  execute same plan over and over again in a hope to achieve different result.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Ctrz
"I don’t believe in astrology- I’m a Sagittarius and we’re skeptical." - Arthur C. Clarke

[Sebast1an]

4 hours ago, Ctrz said:

Would love to hear about them and discuss them through. Rules are not here to stay the same forever - if we find better solution to ensure equal and good gameplay for all then surely TM is willing to overlook set rules.

I think the rules are fine and as comprehensive as they can be. There's no point in making the rules extra complicated over small issues.

But what I mean is that in some maps a spawn "technically" has 2 exits but only one leading to the objective. The other may lead to a completely different area or just be a detour - think Venice allied 2nd spawn exits towards the first square tank is escorted through. If there was only one other exit, the only "useful" exit, according to the rules it would be allowed to arty/whatnot that only exit even if the other exits were totally useless. So my issue with this is that while there technically are multiple exits, you are allowed to block the only "useful" exit with everything but mortar.

4 hours ago, Ctrz said:

For some reason, a lot of people forget the tactical approach to the game and try to  execute same plan over and over again in a hope to achieve different result.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" -whoever

But hey, sometimes insanity gets the results!

Edited October 17, 2021 by Sebast1an

[Nanaa]

Please consider this rule suggestion.

You'd need a new rule for this if you want to keep the definition for spawn exits the same as your current consensus is.

Maps where this rule would be applied or is already applied for some reason (?!):

• Braundorf, the gate which allies dynamited to access 2nd phase.
• Bremen, the gate which allies dynamited to access 2nd phase if it reaches both gate and small door.
• Siwa Oasis, the gate which allies dynamited to access 2nd phase if it reaches both gate and small door.

[Dmxj]

Hey @Nanaa,

Thanks for the suggestions,

i've posted this post into the ETL main admins channel on discord,

So an official statement/reaction will be here soon.

Ps: i follow your suggestions 100% the mortar on this spot is in my eyes way to "OP".

There isn't much space to walk next to the mortarbombs in my eyes.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[Matu]

We discuss it a bit,hold on.

[m00f]

delete mortar - problem solved 😇🤡

[RandyMarsh]

50 minutes ago, m00f said:

delete mortar - problem solved 😇🤡

and Venice.pk3 🥸

[Ctrz]

3 hours ago, m00f said:

delete mortar - problem solved 😇🤡

I think one m00f has caused more ragequits than all mortars in ET combined.  

[Jessica]

On 10/18/2021 at 6:21 PM, m00f said:

delete mortar - problem solved 😇🤡

Wauw, never expected Moof would be this smart  

[Matu]

We discussed it and it stays as it is.

I also dont like it,but its part of the game.If you think about it,the current rule wont allow to fire the exit.So you have the oppurtunity to go out of the door and notice the mortar bombs hit the bridge(without getting hit) and safely avoid them.You ar not forced directly run into mortar fire.Its tactical game so keep your eyes open,or use other path.We wont disble heavy weapons what may be on a path for allies to reach to objective,without allies have a change to use other way or avoid it himself when he have a bit of skill.

Dont get me wrong.Its a great suggestion and a mortar in that map is OP,but it is what it is.

frag on!

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Matu