Announcing Prestige

[Spyhawk]

While we keep working on the usual polishing and bug fixing, the next snapshot will introduce a noticeable feature: say welcome to Prestige!

I'm opening this new thread to present this feature, discuss it with TM admins/members, and also to keep track of your specific feedback.

 

What it is?

Prestige is our attempt to retrieve the original balance of the game, as it was initially designed. You're gonna like it - probably.

 

Why?

Back in 2003, Enemy Territory was unlike many shooters as it blended some RPG leveling element with the more classic FPS experience. Everybody loves to level his character to the maximum even today.

The balance of these skill levels were designed around the Campaign mode, which consisted of 3 consecutive maps after which the earned XPs were reset. Campaign was unfortunately not adequate for public servers, which preferred the Objective and later Map Vote modes instead. As XPs ranking was a way to fiercely display the capability of players to the world - much like a (virtual) wallet with plenty of big fat bills - soon the XP save feature introduced by some mods became the de-facto standard of measuring one to another (despite being merely a measure of time played, and barely related to player skill). And players greatly enjoyed it.

However, XP save also creates some imbalance by enabling skill abilities permanently (such as adrenaline for medics, or double strike for fieldops). These were never been accounted for in the original game balance, as XPs were reset at the end of maps or campaigns. Many mods introduced features designed to counter balance the side effects of XP save, f.e. by having bloaty options to limit adrenaline or self healing.  In Legacy mod, we introduced several changes over time to get rid of XP save, by displaying XPs earned on the current map only (so no more displaying of your 2 billion XPs) or by introducing a more robust system to measure and compare players' skill (Skill Rating).

Looking at TM current server settings, it is clear that work wasn't entirely done, as skill levels are still permanently enabled for players. This is the entire purpose of Prestige. 

 

How does it work?

Surprisingly, Prestige is very much like XP save: player's XPs are saved between played maps, and earned skill levels are retained for the next match. Where's the difference then?

Prestige keeps track of maxed out skill levels, and once a player maxes out all skill levels, the system will announce the player can collect a Prestige Point (PP) at the next intermission by clicking a button. Collecting a Prestige Point is entirely voluntary, and collecting a PP resets your current skill levels. Yes, you read that correctly: this is why they are called "Prestige Points" in the first place, because only the best players collect them!

Much like the ever-increasing XPs on some other mods, PP are displayed in-game on a separate scoreboard. There is no upper limit, and can be fiercely displayed to the world! The more you have, the more you are prestigious after all. Prestige of other players can also be optionally displayed by aiming at them (like classes and ranks), and a personal progress tracker to the next Prestige Point is visible on the limbo menu. And obviously, a new "Most prestigious player" award is now to compete for!

Advantages of this system include:

• rebalancing the game closer to its original balance as designed, by ensuring the average random player is always in the middle of the skill levels
• a sense of constant improvement: levelling up is what made ET cool and rewarding in the first place!
• a more varied play style, as players would be enticed to play all classes more often rather than sticking to their favorite class forever instead
• maintaining your skills: playing with (sometimes) a slight disadvantage makes you a better player over time
• a clear way to display your inherent alpha male/female superiority over your peers. Prove them they're just pussies!

We hope this feature will help retrieve the original ET experience we all strive for.

 

What if we don't like it?

The good news is that you don't have to like it! Simply do not collect any prestige point and keep enjoying the game as you ever did.

 

What if it doesn't work?

This feature is actually based on similar systems implemented in more modern games. It seems to work well, and we hope it does in ET too!

This said, we're certainly interested in your feedback, and we hope TM admins will test this feature. We plan to monitor the server to see how it goes, and we've included some data tracker (in the database) to check if players collect points or not. Depending on the feedback, we'll see how to improve the feature if needed.

 

What if it really doesn't work?

The Prestige feature will be enabled by default in the next snapshot, but can be disabled by admins with a single cvar. It can also be completely disabled on our side easily before compiling the binaries, and in the worst case, if it really doesn't work without a clear mean to improve it, we can always scrap it entirely. 

 

What if it actually work?

We'd be glad to see players enjoying a closer experience to the original ET again! We might also build some new features upon this system in the far future

We're looking forward to your comments and feedback!

Notes:

• Prestige can be only enabled in Objective and Map Vote mode. It doesn't make sense to use it in Campaign or StopWatch mode.
• While designed to be used with all skill levels enabled, the feature still works with some specific skill level disabled
• Skill levels will have to be adjusted on TM, f.e. changing the current skill_medic "0 0 0 9999" to skill_medic "20 50 90 140" or skill_medic "20 50 90 -1"
• A new database version will be needed. Sorry about that! We'll send instruction for a manual upgrade if TM admins wish to keep the current SR data.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Spyhawk
fixed typo

[MiniMuppet]

Would it be possible to turn Adrenalin off? we wouldn't want this on the server.

[Spyhawk]

See notes at the bottom!

[MiniMuppet]

1 hour ago, Spyhawk said:

See notes at the bottom!

i did read it  i guess just not properly thanks  

[Ctrz]

I dont't know .. making basically a minigame into regular game. SR rating is still so-so in terms of trustworthyness and good old stacked XP was good indicator to verify if player is new to the server (and thus will be punished less on mistakes because they dont know it all yet) or someone 2-3 in our servers played regular member.

Why I currently like about maxed out stats, is the fact that we dont have that many farming people. When levels needed to be upgraded by working for them, I saw once a day some fieldop who just stood next to spawn and handed out ammopacks but didnt help in any other way.

I think the average player who connect to server wants to play a simple game, with even teams and on even terms and have same guns/equipment like other players (play panzer and have smg as backup gun; see mines on ground; be able to heal teammates with syringe to full health etc).

In last months, Ive seen only 1 complain/discussion in discord where someone said that levelling up should be back. Otherwise - I have heard no complaint in server or anywhere. Members and guests seem to like full classes, no adrenaline, no double jump, no extreme new maps. I dont think the "most prestigious players" would be more popular than "highest skill rating player" that we have currently.

If you are asking feedback, then we should implement it somewhere else and test it - if others do think that it is a direction where we might be headin'.

[Boosted]

I like the Idea and surely will test it.

Since you are not forced to do Prestige i dont see a Reason not to enable it.

I certainly like leveling up, even when that means im weaker against some Players.

[Ctrz]

1 hour ago, Boosted said:

I like the Idea and surely will test it.

Since you are not forced to do Prestige i dont see a Reason not to enable it.

I certainly like leveling up, even when that means im weaker against some Players.

Not 100% against it, just might be confusing (like SR was/is) and/or have some issues. But lets try it. Its just my first opinion and Im glad if my caution was redudant  

[Spyhawk]

9 minutes ago, Ctrz said:

Not 100% against it, just might be confusing (like SR was/is) and/or have some issues. But lets try it. Its just my first opinion and Im glad if my caution was redudant  

Did you notice any SR issue recently? We've monitored the server and checked the SR data after a full month of use, and we've confirmed the fixes we pushed last year did the job (DB looks good, though I'll check again soon).

6 hours ago, Ctrz said:

In last months, Ive seen only 1 complain/discussion in discord where someone said that levelling up should be back. Otherwise - I have heard no complaint in server or anywhere. Members and guests seem to like full classes, no adrenaline, no double jump, no extreme new maps. I dont think the "most prestigious players" would be more popular than "highest skill rating player" that we have currently.

This is actually a very common complaint that is reported in our own Discord regularly (last time just a few... minutes ago), and the reason that feature was put out of the backburner.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Spyhawk

[Charlie]

Imagine right. When you accumulate a number of PP you can go in to a little online store and buy a new slightly different skin or something. Wanna logo up your uniform with <=TM=>? Yes please. Want a pink helmet? Sure. A panza that looks like a sausage? Go for it. You want to do a "Wilhelm scream" when you die? Why not. The possibilities are endless  

In all seriousness I like the sounds of it. Levelling skills gives me something different to do instead of playing the same 2 classes each map. It might not be everyone's cup of tea though.

[ryven]

On 3/9/2020 at 1:29 PM, Ctrz said:

good old stacked XP was good indicator to verify if player is new to the server

That's what levels are for, also wolfadmin should ideally show the date of first appearance in !finger or such (should probably attempt to add that)
 

On 3/9/2020 at 1:29 PM, Ctrz said:

I saw once a day some fieldop who just stood next to spawn and handed out ammopacks but didnt help in any other way

I saw that too, but that's what admins, like you, are for. Punish people if they do xp-whoring (though makes no sense for tm).
 

On 3/9/2020 at 1:29 PM, Ctrz said:

I think the average player who connect to server wants to play a simple game, with even teams and on even terms and have same guns/equipment like other players (play panzer and have smg as backup gun; see mines on ground; be able to heal teammates with syringe to full health etc).

People just got used to it, but it doesn't mean it's a good thing, server can get extremely disbalanced due to certain changes, like spawntimes, and ofc max skills. Imo average player wants to just have fun game, and skill upgrades (or not) have nothing to do with it, more over, having skill upgrades on, to my experience, keeps people longer on the server (not that this is an issue for tm due to monopoly). Gradual upgrades makes game certainly more pleasing, especially if you have played campaign mode. We do actually want to get campaigns back on track, by introducing dynamically composed campaigns, to allow different map sets (to compete with mapvoting), that would indeed make it even more closer to the vanilla experience.

[Ande]

Green light for new things

[Jaime]

 

On 3/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, Charlie said:

Imagine right. When you accumulate a number of PP you can go in to a little online store and buy a new slightly different skin or something. Wanna logo up your uniform with <=TM=>? Yes please. Want a pink helmet? Sure. A panza that looks like a sausage? Go for it. You want to do a "Wilhelm scream" when you die? Why not. The possibilities are endless  

In all seriousness I like the sounds of it. Levelling skills gives me something different to do instead of playing the same 2 classes each map. It might not be everyone's cup of tea though.

Amm I'm bit confused about it. We play et because it's not like modern games with all these colorful skins. Or it's just my opinion. I don't really like idea of changing ET to Fortnite. Ofc I'm fan of testing new solutions, looking up to modern games and their ideas and bring best of them to ET. 

As I see developers and admins listen to the community so I'm sure that it won't go to wrong way. 

[Spyhawk]

Going the Fortnite route wasn't what was on our mind when we mentioned "new features upon this system".

It is true the possibilities are endless, but it doesn't mean we'll implement endlessly stupid ideas. (but I am sure Charlie wasn't entirely serious with his panza-sausage idea... ).

Edited March 10, 2020 by Spyhawk

[Svepa]

Obviously not used it yet, but reading that i’m not excited at all.

If I’m reading it correctly, the better player will be dramatically better when they gain levels, and a lower player will die even quicker than they do now.

If that’s the case, I can see people going elsewhere for casual gaming

Edited March 11, 2020 by Svepa

[Spyhawk]

1 hour ago, Svepa said:

Obviously not used it yet, but reading that i’m not excited at all.

If I’m reading it correctly, the better player will be dramatically better when they gain levels, and a lower player will die even quicker than they do now.

If that’s the case, I can see people going elsewhere for casual gaming

I don't know what your read, but that doesn't sound like you read the above :D

I'm not sure how to explain the system more clearly - it isn't complicated at all, and virtually changes nothing for people that do not want to collect PP, but I guess it's better to let TM try it for a week or so, after which you could evaluate the system for what it is.

[Svepa]

35 minutes ago, Spyhawk said:

I don't know what your read, but that doesn't sound like you read the above

I'm not sure how to explain the system more clearly - it isn't complicated at all, and virtually changes nothing for people that do not want to collect PP, but I guess it's better to let TM try it for a week or so, after which you could evaluate the system for what it is.

We already know the prestigious players as we keep getting killed by them haha

[Grobbebol]

I think it's worth a try. Personally I don't care for XP, SR or whatever prestige system, but there are a lot of people who do like this.

Since it is OPTIONAL to trade in your XP for a Prestige Point I think this can work. It gives the stronger players more challenges and the casual players still the tools to be competitive.

 

[Duro]

Only thing thats not clear to me: With the prestige system, do all player start with skill lvl 0? Means, no fast reload, longer recharge time, no double arty etc etc.

Or does the prestige not change anything regarding the current server settings? If it's the last then i'm in favour to add it because i think it cant do any harm.

[Spyhawk]

Everybody will start with all skill levels set to 0, because the new database table won't have any data to start with.

However, this is only a matter of a couple of hours before your characters maxes out. Remember the skill levels system has been originally designed around the Campaign mode, which is 3 maps only! It is obviously not easy to get all levels in only 3 maps, but it is indeed possible. Most people will reach max levels in a few evenings at most.

 

Also, if you guys want to try it out, the official test server has been running the prestige feature for a couple of weeks. We're polishing  minor details before delivering a new snapshot to TM. Disadvantage is that you'll play mostly against boring bots there.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Spyhawk

[Sebast1an]

Sorry if you have already answered this but will leveling up become harder as your prestige level rises? Or is it going to be the same amount of effort over and over again for another level up? I feel like it should get harder as it is completely voluntary and it wouldn't be too easy to level up after a while.

I suppose it can be a good addition but I personally don't find leveling up all classes to max over and over very appealing. Even more so because I mostly play only 2 classes anyway. However, as mentioned above, leveling from 0 to max is basically a few hours effort so it probably doesn't hurt to try and see how people like it.

[Spyhawk]

No, levelling difficulty will be the same.

It could be an interesting feature to add, but it might also be hard to balance. We had a similar idea where prestige point would make players earn ribbon (kinda like medals), with the next ribbon demanding gradually more PP. But at first, we need to check how players adapt to a simple system before maybe complexifying it.

[Poyer]

Well, I don't mind actually. I play ET for 'old school' reasons: it's simple and basic. But if the majority embraces these changes with leveling up and so on, I absolutely won't be a showstopper ! Guess you'll just want to call a vote after these opinions and see if the majority is in for the changes .

[harald]

On 3/8/2020 at 10:49 PM, Spyhawk said:

soon the XP save feature introduced by some mods became the de-facto standard of measuring one to another (despite being merely a measure of time played, and barely related to player skill).

How are PP any different? Players with high PP are still the ones who live on the server.

I miss my 1 million XP...

[Spyhawk]

Did you even read the purpose of the feature before commenting? ...

[Ctrz]

2 hours ago, Spyhawk said:

Did you even read the purpose of the feature before commenting? ...

To be fair, I have now trialed this prestige thing a little time and I must say - its bit more challenging. Also there are people who likes to have full stats and easier game but I've taken the challenge.

Only thing to do is to us to think 'what can we do with these prestige points' overall as a community . But I'll write about it in some other place when have some ideas.