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Balanced classes


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(Another endless probably never ending topic, also place for endless discussion :D)

Most out of balance class: Medic. (Highest HP,Health regeneration, Self healing capability)

Those perks create 5.5th subclass under medic: Rambomedic. That is where the issue starts in my opinion.

As many modern games give balance tweaks with every patch then in ET it has been the same for very long time and it has become part of the game which causes another issue: People so used to how things are and any changes will have negative feedback.

Rambomedic in gameplay: You will see this person choosing fragging over healing and it is probably even more efficient way for the team if a skilled player uses advantages of the class to shred down enemy team. When a skilled player going rambo is more beneficial than staying behind as a team medic it creates situations where players seeking for medical aid find frustration in rambomedics not healing as in reality their fragging action is going to advance team more than keep healing teammates that keep going down. So current benefits of medic class will be used to get most sustainability in a fight. If you enjoy SMG fights medic is the most powerful class to choose for it, making the true purpose of "Medic" 2nd.

It feels like theres two possible classes under one:

  • Supportive Medic: Fully using its kit to aid team.
  • Rambo Soldier: Powerful enemy shredder.

All other classes seem to have logical identities:

  • Soldier: Powerful weapons
  • Engineer: Interacting with most objectives in map (repairing, constructing and destroying heavy objects with dynamite), tactical landmines.
  • Field ops: Powerful tactical field control through artillery and airstrikes + ammo support for team.
  • Covert ops: Possible stealth, stealing clothes, tactical smoke, sniper, destroying light objects with satchel.

Things start getting confusing under Medic class, If you take the class name and look at the item kit:

  • Medic: Medical support for team (revive + med packs).

Now the other part powerful SMG capabilities seem to fit more under class Soldier. (Powerful weapons). Right now Medic with SMG and top shooting skills is equal to powerful weapon. I think this is where the balance might happen. Rambomedic should be under Soldier class. Those players who enjoy fraggin the most should pick Soldier class with SMG, it will delete 2ndary Medic duties if u want to focus on fragging. It will erease players complaining about rambomedics not healing. Once powerful fraggers decide to pick soldier instead of medic i think in general it will be more healthy for everyone. If you pick Medic you can focus on medic duties and thats what most players expect from that class.

HP Balance

To create a powerful Soldier with SMG medic perks need to be nerfed and soldier perks buffed, for example max HP:

  MAX HP right now: MAX HP Balance:
Soldier 140 156(+16)
Medic 156 140(-16)
Engineer 140 140
Field ops 140 140
Covert ops 140 140

Regeneration balance

Options:

  1. Remove medic regeneration as medic can alwasy use medpacks to heal himself.
  2. Health Regeneration for every class.

Out of combat health regeneration (3s trigger) for every class, options:

  1. Low Hp regeneration up to 25%.
  2. Regeneration up to 75%.
  3. Full HP Regeneration.

Mix of 1. and 2.:

  • Fast out of combat regeneration up to 20-25%(Up to syringe heal). Advantages to stealth plays when u manage to sneak behind enemy with low hp, you will regenerate.
  • slower regeneration up to 75% (Battle sense bonus HP). All classes can generate back hp just like medic does right now. If you want Battle sense bonus HP seek for med packs.

Faster regeneration and faster out of combat trigger for soldier class also and option to buff.

Conclusion

2 strongest perks of medic shifted to Soldier:

  • Max HP.
  • Strongest health regeneration.

Whole idea behind this is to fix/erase the famous Rambomedic and balance class perks. Desired outcome would be that players who want to focus on fragging can choose Soldier with SMG instead of Medic as viable strong and powerful front liner, fully focusing on shooting that is encouraged by team. That would bring into game another subclass Soldier with SMG that is right now considered as secondary weapon (SMG as 2ndary weapon should be removed). Medic would be picked for the team aiding kit. 1vs1 Soldier with SMG Vs Medic, Soldier should feel stronger and have good sustainability for fights as does medic now. I think this would fix the identity crisis.

Any positive+negative thoughts and suggestions on topic encouraged. :D

Edited by uips
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I find the ‘Rambo soldier’ an genius find and nerve the medic. It will  balance out good I think! I love these out of the box thought’s!

But fo shizzle it wil be the Rambo metics who will start arguing and whining so I guess it’s an no go but I like the thought!!!

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If I played as a rambomedic, I would not trade the ability to heal myself for +16hp and hp regeneration. Healing oneself is what makes rambos so powerful, as most of the time they will be able to win any given 1v1 and even if not, selfhealing will give them another chance at it. Not to mention after you win your duel, you can heal yourself and go on to the next. With soldier class, you're just stuck with the low hp and are basically useless in regards of the next duel. Health regeneration at low hp, say it's 6hp/sec at 30hp, to regenerate the remaining hp takes 21 seconds. Might as well respawn at that point.

This topic about medics being overpowered has been brought up about 600 times already. Usually people don't like making changes to it so I'm quite confident this time is no different.

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9 minutes ago, Sebast1an said:

Healing oneself is what makes rambos so powerful.

Disable med pack healing for medics to rely on self regeneration only.

Even bigger health regeneration for Soldier class to recover for next fight? whatever the balance tweak necessary to make SMG/soldier more appealing than SMG/medic for fragger playtype.

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well i dont know, why always complaing about medics, thats the game.
It makes no sense to give the PF so much HP. Rather increase the health from every class a bit and decrease the Medic.
Maybe also disable selfheal

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Maybe disable med packs an link the  regeneration to medic activity. 

No medic packs provided to teammates or no syringe, no regeneration. 😋

BTW, is there a limited number of syringe in the current conf? 

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Better is the enemy of good...

Some people don't like bazookas, some are bothered by mortars, some are annoyed by grenades or airstrikes, and everyone is nervous about rambo medics with extraordinary aiming skills. There will always be something to disturb someone. However, reading some of the suggestions I am concerned about how easy it is to spoil what we have achieved so far.

The server is so popular for a reason. Some of us remember that it wasn't always like it is today, and rebuilding a community isn't easy at all. Please don't spoil this with  ill-considered and too far-reaching changes.

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From my point of view : don't change anything :) 

==> Also Medic starts with few ammo and most of players don't want  to gib because of that . So medic can be the weak point of your team too .

Rambo medic / "Slash kill" / mortar / random nade / loto riffle that"s a jungle when we are 20vs20 but not when you play on ET2 server.

After playing years with a team  (and a 10 years pitstop), it was rude to play on a public server but now I am rediscovering the pleasure of my early days in ET.  I'm trying new class i never played before (snipe panza inge) and keep it cool. When it's mental, I change to ET2 (my prefered server but often empty)  and pray to survive one spawn (as a medic with a big pile of medic pack)

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Posted (edited)
On 3/21/2022 at 4:46 PM, FrenchPie said:

No medic packs provided to teammates or no syringe, no regeneration. 😋

Link Medic regeneration with First Aid given (med packs/revive). That seems like an excellent idea. Why? it encourages more team play.

Example situation: 2 allies with 50 hp both (Medic+Soldier?).

  • option 1 for medic is rambo: med pack for himself and jump in action, +20 hp to Medic, +0 hp to soldier. Total healing value: 20 hp
  • option 2: Med pack for Soldier (Aid team). +0 hp to Medic, +20 hp to soldier. Total healing value: 20 hp

Perk FIrst Aid (First aid action from medic will trigger its health regeneration)

  • med pack for Medic: +20 hp to Medic, +0 hp to soldier. Total healing value: 20 hp
  • med pack for Soldier: Health regeneration for medic +5hp/sec for 4 seconds (+20 hp to Medic), +20 hp to soldier. Total healing value: 40 hp (2x)

Same thing could happen on revive.

Also mentioned above by Sebast1an: Treating yourself with med packs is one of the strongest perks.

Another possibility to encourage medic for team play would be to lower the HP gain value from med packs thrown by yourself. It synergies very well with the above concept.

Self healing nerf for medic:

Example situation: 2 allies with 50 hp both (Medic+Soldier?).:

  • Med pack to yourself: +10 hp. ( -10 hp nerf) Total value: 10 hp.
  • Med pack to Soldier: +20 hp to Soldier. Total value: 20 hp.
  • Synergy with Health regeneration: Med pack to Soldier: default: +20 hp to Soldier. Health regeneration for medic +5hp/sec for 4 seconds (+20 hp to Medic) Total value: 40 hp.

Self healing nerf + First aid regeneration Compare Total heal value in terms of HP: Throwing Med pack for teammate has 4x more value than healing yourself.

This will nerf actions of Medic playing solo and encourage team play.

 

Edited by uips
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Posted (edited)

Further ideas over "RAMBO" Soldier.

Main focus would be to get players who seek fragging to choose Soldier as first option.

Big benefit for Rambo medic is med packs for himself, so some ideas to bring that to Soldier:

New perk for Soldier - Combat Rage (Each kill will give Soldier fast health regeneration over period of time):

  • +10hp/sec over 3 seconds (+30 hp)
  • Each kill will extend duration additional 3secs, for example multikill would have +10hp/sec over 3 seconds x3 (+90 hp).

Current given numbers are just to show the idea behind it.

This will rework the way soldier works and throwing yourself in intense fights will be rewarding and fun. The idea is to give Soldier more sustainability as Medic has right now through self healing capabilities. That usually involves exiting combat for few secs to heal yourself. What Combat rage would bring to soldier no need to exit fight as the sustainability happens during fight.

Such updates would rather move on from ET:Legacy towards ET:Reworked as an attempt to bring new things to the game.

As also mentioned above why change something that has been around always. I consider it more like lack of live patches over period of time and the game has just taking the form as it is now and that is considered the standard right now and everyone is used to it and knows how the game works. As i mentioned earlier that changes have high chance of negativity for the very same reason. But that does not mean there is nothing left to improve. As a form of discussion maybe there will pop up some interesting not so game breaking ideas to consider.

Edited by uips
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To be honest im not happy with changing class styles and configurations. For example for me CVOPS is now insane, because he can move/jump while scoping and rate for fg42 is like in mg xD

My favourite class is medic but for 90% of the time my priority is to heal my teammates. Yes im fragger like many players on the server but in my opinion im not acting like a blind when some1 is calling medic (but when im in the middle of the fight with enemy, the priority for me is to kill enemy, after this heal others. Explanation is simple - enemy can kill me faster while im trying to use syringe and the result will be - teammate dead, im dead).

Let the game be the game as from years ago.

So pls do not change mechanic of the class. I dont have a problem with reducing medic health a increasing for other classes, but disabled selfhealing will make medic very nerfed

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17 minutes ago, Sebast1an said:

I feel like if you can't put the changes into one sentence and still make sense, it is too much of a change.

I think its easier to make new ET game rather than reach to any agreement with people who have played this game 15+ years like this. :D

Sometimes I miss that Medic/Fops cant take Sten gun like it was possible in RTCW ..

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Now I'm sure some of you are sick of RtCW veterans whining about how stock ET classes and maps are badly balanced, but comparing the two games yields important insights into this issue.

You can trace this consternation over rambo medics all the back to the initial ET release. We were the first to notice and complain during the fueldump only beta. ET medics simply have too much ammo and can operate independently of field ops.

The reverse is true too. RtCW Lieutenants (field ops) have to constantly ration their charge bar to supply ammo to medics. ET field ops have far more charge to use for artillery/airstrike. This is made less problematic in ET with the introduction of sticky charges and a team-wide recharge timer artillery/airstrike. Additionally, ET airstrikes have their charge requirement increased from 1/2 (in RTCW) to 3/4 or full. These changes had not been necessary in RtCW despite how easy it was to spam airstrikes.

One simple change (in the sense of gameplay complexity) is to deny medics the extra clip + grenade after leveling light weapons, and the ability to pick up an enemy's dropped gun. To get a sense of how much difference this makes, watch how differently Caro plays when he limits himself to a single pistol as primary. This is how gunfights in RtCW often end up - 'orphaned' medics have to fend for themselves with the miserly pistol against SMGs that fire 2-3x the ET rate (see this). In RtCW, I would run around with the pistol and only switching to SMG when necessary to conserve ammo. In ET public games, I'll often go full on rambo and self-kill unless my team is under siege.

Another factor that incentivises rambo medics is map design: the availability of ammo cabinets, and placement of spawn points. The latter point is subtle. In the standard maps, spawn points are often close to objectives in such a way that it's relatively advantageous to go on a solo shooting spree and then self kill. Think of tc_base vs erdenburg.

In tc_base, although both radars are relatively close by, reaching them opens yourself up to easy attacks.

  • To reach the north radar, you have to thread on open ground surrounded on all sides, high and low.
  • To reach the south radar, you have to run through a narrow corridor which enemies have a clear sight of and then clear one of two narrow gaps (one of which requires a jump) to access the staircase.

So when the south radar is lost, Axis defenders tend to prefer holding their position on the high ground, or staying near the spawn to watch the ground corridors  in both directions. It plays out this way in both public games and tournaments unless Axis is dominating.

You can make a similar point for the others: Village, Assault, Ice, Beach. There is little you can do to address without architectural modifications, except maybe to remove ammo and health cabinets. It sounds like overkill, however.

Edited by StiffWrists
Edited for clarity
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Posted (edited)
On 3/23/2022 at 9:10 AM, lost said:

To be honest im not happy with changing class styles and configurations. For example for me CVOPS is now insane, because he can move/jump while scoping and rate for fg42 is like in mg xD

To me direction of those changes make a lot of sense. If it currently is balanced that is another question.

As cover ops you can choose between sten, fg4, k43.

Back in old times fg42 never felt a threat it was one of easiest targets in close combat fights. Now Undercover covert ops with fg42 can shred u down before u can react. I remember skilled shooters favoring sten for accuracy, even aimbotters going covert ops as sten for the very same reason. In ETL i rarely see someone using sten.

Right now fg42 is the weapon to choose for close combat.  If u wanted to snipe k43 was always the option.

  • fg42 - near, scope (mid-far)
  • (SMG  - mid)
  • Sten - mid-far
  • K43 - far-very far

to me those aim distances are very fair if they are balanced correctly.

fg42 close combat monster with 2ndary range extension as scope.

Sten should be superior over mid-far range compared to SMG.

I think the variety is good when it is balanced and you can choose a weapon for yourself based on your desired playstyle.

I might give even as far as K43 oneshots players without helmet, this way you as a sniper will look for players without helmet for secured kill. Players on other hand want to have that helmet. Right now it is not that hard to take down sniper with SMG

 

 

Edited by uips
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