UX of maps

[Jaime]

Ok made Goldrush as 1st. Please share your feedback.

Red areas - the most restricted: no mortar, no arty, no heavy, no sk
Orange - less restricted: no mortar, no arty
Yellow - no mortar

I also upload .tga file, so we can test it. Not sure if I can compress it better. I selected compress RLE and 16 bits per pixel .tga is less than 200 kB

Goldrush-GA_cc.tga

 

My idea is to follow next steps:

1. Discuss and accept design of the areas

2. Test one map

3. Discuss and accept areas on every map (map by map)

4. Implement solution

5. Ask users for feedback

6. Drink beer

[Jessica]

Jaimy, would it be possible to add flags ?
Red flags for Only Axis spawn
Blue flags for Only Allies spawn,
??? flags for capturable flags 

And then we have to add legend to the map, which makes the rules clear for
1. When capturable
2. When fixed ( Wall is blown in oasis for example )

Edited May 16, 2022 by Jessica

[MiniMuppet]

do we want to move this topic for some of the regulars to help us? some on discord seemed interested.

[Jaime]

17 hours ago, Jessica said:

Jaimy, would it be possible to add flags ?
Red flags for Only Axis spawn
Blue flags for Only Allies spawn,
??? flags for capturable flags 

And then we have to add legend to the map, which makes the rules clear for
1. When capturable
2. When fixed ( Wall is blown in oasis for example )

Jess I downloaded map from ET files. There are no flags on the map. I think script overlay these elements and grid when map loads. I can place them for us to have better view, but file should stay the same.

 

 

7 hours ago, MiniMuppet said:

do we want to move this topic for some of the regulars to help us? some on discord seemed interested.

I started this topic here cuz I thought it's our member decision. If you know who, may help us, please contact me to the right people. I don't use discord very often

[MiniMuppet]

ok have tagged you and them in the chat on discord we can always make a channel on discord if they want to help

[chEz]

10 hours ago, Jaime said:

Jess I downloaded map from ET files. There are no flags on the map. I think script overlay these elements and grid when map loads. I can place them for us to have better view, but file should stay the same.

 

 

I started this topic here cuz I thought it's our member decision. If you know who, may help us, please contact me to the right people. I don't use discord very often

hello there

How can I help? ^^

[_Ler]

Hello guys, I will try to share my thoughts about what has been written here.

 

First of all, to success in this you (as clan) should have a clear definition of what is SK and what not. It's been 20 years since TM exists so I guess you all have a clear idea of how you want to manage SK in your servers but some maps have special spawns and should have special rules, but they don't atm because it would make your job harder (and I understand that). Example: et_beach flag spawn is the whole map capturable, so you can SK with heavy. Yet it has only 1 effective exit towards objective and is a small, normal-sized door (2 players can't go through at the same time). So it sometimes (most of the times tbh) it gets unplayable. I think some maps should be reviewed and have special spawnkill rules, or just find modifications (in beach case, there is a mapscript around that makes spawn flag non capturable after being held for 2 minutes by allies. Also a second spawn when allies have CP).

 

Having the rules clear I procceed to comment on what's been said:

 

Quote

The diagrams on the forums and the changes to the in-game maps MUST be consistent otherwise we now have two potentially conflicting rules.

Agree with this, but once you have the map TGA done it would be easy to update the forum images and even make new ones with some red/yellow overlay that makes it 'clearer'.

 

Quote

Minimap is where I taught its gonna be. Can we make minimap bigger so it would be easier to determine where the line of allowed/not allowed actually is? 

Minimap is an 'addon' of the map, it uses same TGA as limbo map (if I'm not wrong). Minimap settings are user-side, you can't force a player to have a minimap size (some even don't have minimap on HUD). But painting the map TGA would be enough to have it shown in minimap.

 

Quote

Also who is going to make all the maps? who is going to make map for the maps when we change them? we won't just be able to add maps when we feel like it we will have to wait for the maps to be done. We would also need to discuss every spawn killing point on every map before they are made.

This is what I was talking about. Before implementing it all, it would be needed to discuss what you are to consider sk and what not, and maybe even considering bigger areas from what it's now accepted as non-spawn area. Example: Pirates behind bridge. Sometimes it's impossible to play because even if spawn is protected by fake roof, you can't even get to the bridge or tunnel entrance without being killed or left with very low HP.

 

Quote

Ok made Goldrush as 1st. Please share your feedback.

The image looks great, I would only add a border (blue/dark gray) to the areas, to be clear that they are an overlay and not a map 'feature' (especially with yellow). Also as Jessica says, a legend in bottom-right corner would be good to explain the colors (bottom-right because it's closest to team selection - only pros with team binds won't see it)

Problem comes with this:

Quote

1. When capturable
2. When fixed ( Wall is blown in oasis for example )

The example given, oasis Old City spawn:

• It starts as axis and is capturable, so you can as allies attack the flag with everything except mortar (yellow area)
• Once old city wall is destroyed, flag dissapears and spawn becomes red area

As map image, as far as i know, can't be updated live, you only can solve this by adding another color (and actually it's a bigger area in this case), and add it to the legend. And that, if not done well, might be confusing.

 

_________

 

As an addon, someone proposed in discord an anti-SK lua script, done originally for etpro servers. https://github.com/x0rnn/etpro/blob/master/lua/ETWsk.lua

It makes an sphere from a point given, and if played is killed inside that sphere the killer is put spec (or kicked after X spawnkills). If this can be adapted to legacy mod, it could be implemented with the 'red zones', so the admins would have more time to play only care about orange-yellow areas.

 

Don't know if it helped much, but that's what I have to say for now

[Matu]

1 hour ago, _Ler said:

Problem comes with this:

The example given, oasis Old City spawn:

• It starts as axis and is capturable, so you can as allies attack the flag with everything except mortar (yellow area)
• Once old city wall is destroyed, flag dissapears and spawn becomes red area

As map image, as far as i know, can't be updated live, you only can solve this by adding another color (and actually it's a bigger area in this case), and add it to the legend. And that, if not done well, might be confusing.

@Ctrz 

Half of the maps the spawning point switches.but you have been suggested it for a long time so problably you have a solutions.Maybe use different colours for axis and allieas and make a full rainbow on spawnpoints-much easyer and not confusing than it is now

Edited May 18, 2022 by Matu

[Dmxj]

The idea is wonderfull!

But as you can see all maps have outdated cc files what makes it almost impossible to edit them.

[Jaime]

Thanks _Ler for your ideas. 

I have to admit that I fully agree with you. 
From my job experience, I learnt to adjust system to people, not people to the system. Best thing is to consider every area of the maps that makes troubles and redesign them or make adjustments without ruining balance. I'd love to experience with this, but I have lack of knowledge about modifying maps. Maybe someone can give me direction where I can start  (tutorials, etc?).

That would be the best option, but we don't have time/sources to modifying maps. 

The script also sounds optimal. I like the idea with the sphere. I'd suggest to first just inform the player whenever he SK. Mortaring and arty causes the most problems. So when mortar guy shoot, and he hit yellow/orange/red area he gets communicate and 2nd time he's warned or something.
Here  I can also try to write the script, but I have no idea where to start. 

 

I propose changing TGA maps because this is the easiest way to inform players where they are allowed to shoot. Agree that it won't solve capturable areas. I'm far from colouring map on rainbow. It won't be simple to read.

I wonder if we can overlay these areas with code. As I know Flags, CP and other graphics are overlaying on the map by code, and they may change during map (for ex. when one team cap flag). 

[_Ler]

The idea is, even if in photoshop it's low quality but in game it's seen decent, and areas can be marked and they're still being seen in the map/minimap, why not give it a try?

 

Other question is the colors the devs used to draw the map, that's why maybe the borders around the marking would be a thing to try, also depending on the map use different colors (with a legend on a side)

[Ctrz]

14 hours ago, Matu said:

@Ctrz 

Half of the maps the spawning point switches.but you have been suggested it for a long time so problably you have a solutions.Maybe use different colours for axis and allieas and make a full rainbow on spawnpoints-much easyer and not confusing than it is now

I think it would be good to list down all these maps where it happens and also make sure that we have updated map file available before adding new map in. Also make more use of the glass roofs.

With Oasis and similar maps that has capturable spawn we can either sort it with drawing on a map OR maybe it is possible to use custom command with a map. For example !rule oasis and display well worded rules in both console and chat area and keep make them spammy if needed + if possible, change that text after some even has took place. Like when tunnel door is open, it is displayed "TUNNEL DOOR OPEN" - could we display similar writing "NO heavy weapons in map sector D1 (maybe its easier to communicate using sector names on map?)".

D1 is pretty much what we do aim to stop here.

[Dragonkiss]

Glass roofs on fixed spawn? Is that an option? So that they cannot shoot mirror out of spawn/into spawn 

[WuTangH]

You can change the levelshot image on fly with a remapshader command in mapscripts. This way it would be possible to change colors on capturable spawns on various events like destroying Oasis wall, for example.

http://games.chruker.dk/enemy_territory/scripting_reference.php#models_and_texture_related

A simple example of changing oasis minimap to radars would look like this:

        remapshader levelshots/oasis_cc_trans levelshots/radar_cc_trans
        remapshader levelshots/oasis_cc_automap levelshots/radar_cc_automap
        remapshaderflush

Remapshaderflush executes the shader change, so you need to always add it in the end. And the 1st shader is always the original one, no matter how many times you change it.

Also, if you create a compressed TGA with just spawnareas and blank/black background, you can save some filesize. You will need to blend it through shader with original map image then.

Those levelshot shaders would look something like this then:

spawnareas/oasis_cc_automap
{
    nopicmip
    nocompress
    nomipmaps
    {
        clampmap levelshots/oasis_cc.tga
        depthFunc equal
        rgbGen identity
    }
    {
        clampmap levelshots/spawn_mask.tga
        blendfunc blend
        rgbGen identity
        alphaGen vertex
    }
}

spawnareas/oasis_cc_trans
{
    nopicmip
    nocompress
    nomipmaps
    {
        clampmap levelshots/oasis_cc.tga
        blendfunc blend
        rgbGen identity
        alphaGen vertex
    }
    {
        clampmap levelshots/spawn_mask.tga
        blendfunc blend
        rgbGen identity
        alphaGen vertex
    }
}

.. "spawn_mask.tga" would be the transparent image with spawn locations.

Edited May 19, 2022 by WuTangH

[Ctrz]

On 5/19/2022 at 12:44 PM, Dragonkiss said:

Glass roofs on fixed spawn? Is that an option? So that they cannot shoot mirror out of spawn/into spawn 

Yes, we already have those in some maps. Suprised that you have not seen those yet ..  

[Dragonkiss]

2 hours ago, Ctrz said:

Yes, we already have those in some maps. Suprised that you have not seen those yet ..  

I usually don’t shoot in/out of spawn as I’m too busy teamkilling 

[Jaime]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:48 PM, WuTangH said:

"spawn_mask.tga" would be the transparent image with spawn locations.

Perfect, so I need to design 2 versions of map that has capturable spawns  Thanks a lot

 

[StiffWrists]

I actually wonder if there is appetite for the game to be enhanced to support 'no artillery/airstrike/heavy weapon' zones. Seems useful for public games. Basically admins define regions in the map and the server prevents artillery/airstrike calls or shots from happening in them. It can be combined with the invisible clipping that's applied to et_beach on ETL1 for comprehensive enforcement.

[Jaime]

So I started a threat and then took a break from ET  

Update from my side. SK areas work fine. They weight like 1Kb because I see that png is supported. I tested it on Goldrush and I think it might help a lot. The only challenge is that there are maps that require 2 - 4 versions of that maps (like pirate when you cap flag, blow wall, build cp). 
Is there any smart dude that would explain to me how to handle switching this map based on these events?

In Goldrush there is only one map with sk areas beacuse even if allies cap 1st spawn sk areas are the same

[uips]

16 hours ago, Jaime said:

 Is there any smart dude that would explain to me how to handle switching this map based on these events?

Probably those events exist in map script as well. Maybe it is possible to change the SK map mask with script after the event?

[Jaime]

Yeah I even found these events but don't know how to change there a sk map mask. Maybe today I figure it out  

Here's Goldrush-GA with SK areas Please test it if you want Just place this .pk3 to ETLegacy / etmain folder and then when you host game it should be on the list
goldrush-ga.pk3

[uips]

20 minutes ago, Jaime said:

goldrush-ga.pk3

[Jaime]

Maybe forum doesnt acccept pk3 format:

https://we.tl/t-vbB3ahkQ2u here's the link

[WuTangH]

I built an example with two masks from the goldrush pack that you posted. Theres instructions file, too. Hope it helps.

levelshots_example.zip

[MrMuppet]

On 9/25/2022 at 1:56 PM, uips said:

pk3's are allowed so I'm not quite sure why you get that error unless its a group permission, I've updated your level so there should be no issues now.